New Catalan minister for the Presidency, Elsa Artadi, (Barcelona, 1976) has a temporary office in one of the Generalitat palace's ceremonial spaces - the Saló de Sant Jordi - while she waits for a permanent office at the other end of the Catalan government building. On the walls of her space, there is a photo of president in exile Carles Puigdemont, and a series of sketches. It is Friday, little more than a week since the new Catalan government took power, the corridors of the building are full of boxes, with the moving-in process still in full swing. Some of those boxes are awaiting their final move to the vice-presidency area.
This week the new Spanish government has been sworn in, a week after the Catalan executive. At that time, new Spanish PM Pedro Sanchez attacked Catalan president Quim Torra, calling him a "supremacist". Now he has nominated Josep Borrell as a minister, a man who has spoken about "disinfecting Catalonia"... What chance of dialogue do you see between the two executives?
Certainly those are not the words that we would want to hear from the Spanish government. To get into a match of discrediting, insulting and lying in this way is under no circumstances the way to find dialogue and build bridges. We want to see what steps they decide to take, but certainly, we would have liked to see ministerial profiles that were much more progressive.
Yesterday you said you were worried by this Spanish government...
Yes, I said that the interior minister worries me. I am probably not the only Catalan citizen to be concerned, and likely there are Spanish citizens that feel the same. He is the minister of the Yak-42 [military air accident]. Of the nine verdicts condemning Spain at the Human Rights Court in Strasbourg for not investigating torture, six of them are connected with the new interior minister. But I repeat, we prefer to allow some time to see what actions the government takes before prejudging what they will do.
And the minister of culture?
That is different. There are statements he's made that disqualify him from holding a post like this. It surprises us that an executive which has created an equality ministry is not concerned about certain declarations made by the minister himself. Somebody needs to think about the coherence of this government.
They have not specified when Pedro Sánchez will meet Quim Torra, and it has been said they would try and schedule it before summer...
To us, that is important. We are willing to sit down at the table at any time. We have asked for dialogue, asked to meet. Now it is up to them to set the date. For us, [it would be] this very afternoon. Because we give it full priority.
It seems that the Sanchez government does not give it such priority...
The facts speak for themselves...
This dialogue that you are asking for, what will it be to speak about?
About how we resolve the current situation. What does Pedro Sànchez think of the repression that exists in Catalonia, and the democratic regression? What does he think of having a Spanish government that systematically torpedos the Catalan Parliament's passing of any minimally ambitious law, by sending it to the Constitutional Court so that it ends up being annulled? What offer is Sánchez thnking of making to Catalans? We come to this with a willingness to listen to what he has to say. We are very clear about what we want. We have always said what we want: for people to express themselves and decide what their future should be like. Their future and that of their children. Until now the only thing that we have heard is no, no, no and no. What do they offer? Their famous federal model. The right to self-determination that the Spanish Socialists [PSOE] backed in the past, what's left of that?
Sánchez cannot refuse to talk about self-determination. That would be an act of extreme irresponsibility. His position cannot be "we can't talk about that"
Sánchez has said that he is willing to talk about everything, except independence...
He has to explain to us what he thinks about the international agreements that Spain has signed which recognize the right to self-determination of peoples. What does he think about democracy, about the wishes of millions of Catalans who do not want to continue being Spaniards. This is not about just saying "I'm not talking about that". That is an act of extreme irresponsibility by someone who governs. He has to say what his position is. His position can't be "we can't talk about that".
Will president Torra go to the meeting with a specific proposal?
We haven't got the date, and haven't prepared the meeting yet. But he has said repeatedly that it's important to be able to speak about everything, frankly, sincerely, and not with the pressure of immediacy. Does it seem acceptable to him that people of peace, democrats, are in prison or exile? Does he see this as normal, yes or no?
Will prisoners and exiles be part of this dialogue?
We have the clear conviction that this remand in prison is unjust, that it's an extremely cruel preventive detention, and our wish is for the prisoners to be released as it makes no sense to accuse them of rebellion or to have held them in preventive jail for 7 months.
It is the Spanish government which has to decide where it is positioned: whether it backs a democratic regression and repression, or decides to be a progressive and pro-European government
Do you want the position of the Public Prosecutors to change?
We express our desires, our convictions and principles. We are open to talking with the Spanish government. They are the ones who have to decide where they are positioned. Whether they have a vision of democratic regression and repression of the people, and therefore of historical regression, or if they will decide to be a progressive, open and pro-European government.
Would moving the Catalan prisoners to Catalan prisons be a first step that you would see as a gesture?
For us to negotiate the transfer of the prisoners to another prison would mean accepting that their preventive detention has some justification, and it does not have.
What do you think of the images released from Estremera prison showing Catalan vice president Oriol Junqueras and ministers Quim Forn and Raül Romeva?
They seem extremely serious to me. I believe that the prisons have opened an inquiry. They are not just images made at one time and place, but rather are filmed across different days and locations. Therefore, they demonstrate a lack of security and a violation of the rights of people who are already in an extremely delicate situation. They are shocking images. They leave an emotional impact.
After the Torra-Sánchez meetings our proposal is for bilateral negotiation
In the previous legislature, the Catalan government rejected attending multilateral Spanish commissions on funding and other questions linked to Catalan self-government. What will it do now?
This is a discussion we have to finish having at the level of the Catalan executive, but in principle, we are talking about a bilateral path. Initial meetings at the highest level, between Torra and Sánchez, and from there, on bilateral and sector issues. There are commissions which our experience tells us not to attend, such as Spain's Council of Fiscal and Financial Policy, at which the ministry has 50% of the votes, and only has to convince one autonomous community to vote for it. Catalonia's power of influence is null. And the meetings are almost like shop windows - not so much a meeting as arguments about issues.
And so?
Our proposal is the bilateral path, just as we have said at other times.
On Friday you met with Catalan Socialists leader Miquel Iceta. How will you restore dialogue with Cuidadanos now that their Catalan leader Inés Arrimadas has refused to go to the Generalitat palace until the banner on the façade, with the yellow bow, is removed?
President Torra has reiterated his offer and has left it open for her to come and talk whenever she wants to. We are open, we are offering our hand in dialogue and we await her here on the day that she wants to come.
The reason given by Arrimadas is partially an excuse, because it is clear that we won't take the banner down from the façade
She has said that she won't come until the banner is removed from the façade...
It's partially an excuse, as it is clear that we won't take down the banner, we won't stop defending the return of the political prisoners and exiles. The yellow ribbon is in defence of democracy, freedom and fundamental rights. It seems peculiar that they don't want to enter the Palau de la Generalitat because there is a yellow bow on it, when there are yellow bows on many buildings right now, starting with the Barcelona city hall, and I suppose that they continue going there. It doesn't seem to me that it is the best way to talk. It seems more of an excuse, because it is obvious that we will have the banner as long as it is necessary.
However, last Wednesday in the Catalan Parliament, the yellow ribbons were removed from the rows where the government members sit...
That was a decision of Parliament's Committee of Party Spokespeople. Not a decision by the government of Catalonia.
What do you think about the PDeCAT's announcement that it will use the JxCat brand for the municipal elections in 2019?
Legally the brand is theirs, I have nothing to say.
In the muncipal elections, whenever possible, the unitary list should be the principle followed
But would you have preferred the brand to be that of a more open platform?
My opinion on the municipal elections is that where possible, unitary electoral lists should be presented. I believe that in the PDeCAT there is no opposition to this. As a believer in independence, as a republican, whenever there can be a unitary list all over Catalonia, it seems to me that that should be the principle. It is also true that often there are local circumstances, and I do not want to ignore their importance because they are no doubt very important.
And emblematic city councils like that of Barcelona?
For me, it is obvious that we should stand with a unitary list in Barcelona.
Puigdemont is the indisputable leader of JxCat. He has unquestionable political capital, expertise and leadership
There is a certain perception at the grass-roots of the independence movement, that president Carles Puigdemont is being sidelined to some extent, that he does not have as important a role as he should...
I talk to him practically every day. For us he is very much present. He is the indisputable leader of JxCat. He has political capital, expertise and leadership that are unquestionable. For us he is present in all political dimensions in which we work. What is probably happening is that over the last few weeks he has not been in Waterloo, we have not been able to activate the Council for the Republic, he can't travel, he is in a more restricted situation due to the second European arrest warrant. It is probably due to this specific issue that it seems that he has less of a voice.
Is the contact daily?
By message, videoconference or telephone.
There is not just one person who takes the decisions. We are a team
What power does Puigdemont have on the decisions of the government?
We share decision-making naturally as he is leader of JxCat. There is no complexity in putting that into practice. We comment on it, we speak. There is not just one person who takes the decisions. We are a team.
It is a complicated situation...
But in practice it isn't for us. We already went through the Catalan election campaign like this. The months from the December 21st election until the Catalan government took power. There are working teams with different opinions and there is not just one person who takes decisions, and not just a single opinion. We discuss and we work as a team.
The ultimate objective of this legislature is the Catalan Republic
What is the goal of this legislature for the government?
To reinstate, which we have only partially done, because they have not let us form the government we wanted to form; defence of civil and political rights, in particular of the political prisoners and exiles, and this also includes the support for the judicial strategy, internationalization, and so on. And with the ultimate objective being the Catalan Republic, which we do not know if it will be at the beginning, or closer to the end, if it will be in this legislature. We can't say because nobody knows, but the goal is very clear.
In the previous legislature the government was criticised for its road maps and deadlines that were too strict. This government can be criticised for the opposite reason: it doesn't have a road map. Does this executive have a road map?
We have lines of action, the principles on which we want to act, our priorities, but there is a thing that has changed a lot over these last two years, the playing field changes dramatically from one day to the next. It is impossible to plan for a month ahead. We are used to being clear about what we're heading for, to be clear on the lines of action, how they have to be coordinated, and to be constantly applying the criterion of "what is best for the Republic?".
How long will this legislature, this government, last?
We don't know. We want it to last four years. Unless in the middle something happens that changes the framework for the better.
Do you think there could be the possibility of Puigdemont returning during these four years?
We would never renounce that. As a matter of fact we are fighting for his declaration of status as an MP, that is in the DNA of JxCAT - he is the legitimate president of Catalonia. And president Torra has only accepted his office because we stated in advance that the restitution of Puigdemont to the presidency was one of the priorities of JxCAT.
You say you will build the Republic. What does it mean to build the Republic?
It means exercising full government competences and full control of the territory. Right now this is not happening.
When you say this and talk about restoring self-government, that is when the CUP party say that you are "autonomists" - that you accept being an autonomous region in Spain...
It's where we come from. When the CUP ask us to lower university fees, is that building the republic or being autonomist? You can't put the autonomist label on at certain times and forget it at others. JxCat had to take a decision that was not simple. Because it had many nuances. Was it better to stand fast and end up going to new Catalan elections, or to recover control of the Catalan government that we can have, which is not complete. We decided that it was better, in order to continue going forward and defend the interests of Catalonia, to recover the institutions. And this is what we did. Now, what state are the institutions in? Not as they were in August 2017. To continue constructing, we first have to reconstruct. But this does not mean that our vital objective is to return to August 2017. Obviously not.
In autumn we will have some tense and difficult moments at social level when the trials of the civil and political leaders start
When you talk about making the Republic, are you talking about having a referendum agreed on with the Spanish State, about restoring the 1st October referendum result, or what...?
It is about keeping on pushing in all areas so that they can happen, from the Constituent Process, to support the build-up to the local elections from the parliamentary groups, to fully activate parliament so that it is a true republican forum, to continue carrying out international, diplomatic political actions. We will see what happens when the court decisions in Germany and Scotland come out, when things start to move in Switzerland, when it is demonstrated that justice systems at European level see that what happened in Catalonia is a democratic and peaceful process instead of a rebellion. Everything has to go in parallel. Is that simple? No, obviously not. Is it a task that will yield results overnight? Obviously, not. We have to be patient. When we decide to go back to the institutions it is because we think that we will thus give better support. In the coming autumn there be some tense and difficult moments at social level when the trials of the civil and political leaders start. We believe that it is better to be inside the institutions than outside. It was a decision which we believed was shared by the majority of the independence movement. Maybe not totally, because even in our parliamentary group there is a lot of debate. This is fundamental, that there is debate and that afterwards, what the majority believes to be correct is carried out.
How will you face the trials in the autumn?
We'll have to see things evolve, if there are suspensions, if there are charges of rebellion or if they reduce the charges, if changes have taken place through the general public prosecutor... Predicting what the political situation will be like in October or November is very complicated. We have some uncertainty about the schedule. We know that some requests for evidence and appearances being asked for by the defence are not being accepted and so the trials could start earlier. We will see what has happened in the meantime, with the civil case presented by the ministers and the president against judge Pablo Llarena, if this causes a challenge of Llarena or not.
Torra will tell Sanchez that we have the right to self-determination
In the midst of this situation, you have said that you don't renounce acting unilaterally or the Catalans' right to decide...
What I said was that the Catalan government does not have the authority to take the right of self-determination away from the people of Catalonia. We don't have the power to do this. Catalans have the right to self-determination whatever the government of Catalonia says. They have this as citizens of the Catalan nation. There is nothing more to it. We can't take it away from them either. We can't, in an abstract way, renounce either unilateral action or disobedience. How we act has to be decided case by case. 1st October was a unilateral action. We defend it and we claim it as ours, the same as millions of Catalans do. We will not renounce the ability to act unilaterally or use civil disobedience at a time when it is necessary. This does not imply that in 48 hours time we are going to declare independence, but it does imply that at every moment we will evaluate what the best thing to do is.
Is this what president Torra will say to Spanish prime minister Sánchez?
I have no doubt that president Torra will explain to Sánchez that the Catalans have the right to self-determination and that is not in our power to take it away from them. I am sure of that.
Puigdemont says that he will not stand for elections again...
We'll see. He didn't have to stand on 21st December either...
However, the central axis of JxCat is Puigdemont...
Clearly.