While he awaits the Spanish legislature's approval of the amnesty law, the Catalan president-in-exile, Carles Puigdemont (Amer, 1962), has moved his residence from Waterloo in Belgium, to Vallespir (Northern Catalonia, on the French side of the border). From here he will be the protagonist of the Together for Catalonia (Junts) electoral campaign for the May 12th Catalan parliamentary elections, and it will also be the point of departure for his return from exile. In an interview with ElNacional.cat in Perpinyà, which we offer the edited first part in English, a Puigdemont who does not hide his conviction on the possibilities of his candidacy, reviews what these six and a half years of exile have represented and explains how he considers that his return should be conducted, an action which he places in the framework of the Catalan Parliament's investiture debate, when the next president of the Generalitat will be formally voted in by MPs.
The return journey has already begun
Have you closed up the 'House of the Republic' in Waterloo yet?
Closed it up, obviously not, because I haven't had time. But it is clear that the return journey has already begun and that until the election, my life will be here. After the election we need to give a proper closure to the role played by that house, which is an iconic house also in terms of exile. But the thing is that the exile is closed, it's not that the house is closed, it's that the exile is closed with the amnesty law.
So, do you see the end of the exile period or are you still in doubt?
Doubts are always there, but we are at the end of this phase, this is obvious since the amnesty law was approved, first in Congress, and now the Senate procedure is going through. At the speech I gave in Elna, I said that the first phase of the return was already beginning there and it is quite obvious that this is so. It may seem that everything was sudden. And maybe it is true that it has been a little hasty because in the calculations in my calendar this was not supposed to happen now, but it is happening and we are starting to take it in and I, in particular, am taking a new perspective on the situation.
The Carles Puigdemont who is returning from exile is not the same one who left in October 2017...
No. Neither is the country the same, neither are the people. It's normal, things change. I will not find myself in the Catalonia of 2017. It is essential to evolve in the human condition, to learn throughout life, with the knowledge, the experiences you acquire. And Catalonia has changed. First because our whole life changed with the pandemic. This has effects that we have not yet recovered from today. And then, because, obviously, there has been a very conflicting situation in Europe and in the world, the war in Ukraine, the war in the Middle East, climate change... But it is true that all these processes I have experienced on the front line. I may not have been there physically, but we have been monitoring the reality of the country every day since the first day of exile.
And how do you see your return?
There is a part I have tried to preserve all these years, it is the part embodied in the symbolic value of the institution of the presidency of the Generalitat. The Generalitat has existed for centuries, it is not a presidency of an autonomous community or a European region. And I wanted to honour this condition by preserving it as much as possible from the attempt made at its humiliation and repression by the Spanish institutions. A presidency that was unlawfully and, in my view, illegally usurped by Article 155 must be restored in the place where a country's presidencies are appointed and removed, which is in its Parliament. Then there is another part which is, if you like, a little more metaphorical, which is also about self-respect, about a will to defend the country and its institutions above people and parties; a morality of victory, a morality which is also of fighting against defeatism. And thirdly, it is also the return of a way of understanding the institutions and the government of this country. At the time, we already showed what we were capable of, but six and a half years after resisting, holding on, knowing how to say 'no' and knowing how to say 'yes' when it's time, I think we have shown a leadership, a will to defence the interests of all Catalans that we must put into service with the return of good government. So there are many returns, not just symbolic but metaphorical, just to start with. And it's not the end. It's the end of exile, obviously, but it's the beginning. The purpose of the legislature is not the return, it is to start the legislature.
The return from exile must be an act of pride for the country, to restore self-esteem, of pro-independence unity, and out of the electoral limelight
And have you already thought how you will do it? Because you are talking about a return with a very powerful symbolic charge. How will you go about this? You have already said that it will be in the investiture debate, but how?
There are people on my team who have been working on it for a long time. I commissioned a series of people to think about the action of returning as a act for the country, and also one of pro-independence unity. Therefore, we rule out that it will be an act in the service of my electoral campaign. Even if I could come back for the final election rally, I wouldn't. Because it seems to me that it would be wasting a whole accumulated capital. I would like it to also be useful to restore institutional self-esteem, pro-independence unity and national pride. And we will work on this scenario. There are unknowns, for example, regarding security. This is a big unknown, growing with each passing day. But I think I'm clear that the day I leave exile must be the same day I go to Parliament, because there must be continuity with the place we left. This cannot be an act of Junts per Catalunya or of the candidacy that we are now presenting. This must be a country event, to which everyone is invited and it must take place outside the electoral limelight where there is no temptation to make an electoral use of it.
But in any case, what you would like, is for this to be in an investiture debate in which you are the candidate.
Obviously, and I work for that. And I am convinced that the conditions will be there for this to be the case. But it is clear, this will depend on the voters, not on me. And what the voters decide is what we will have to respect. I have to have the planning done, all of it, to take on an investiture debate that I really want to take on.
I am working for my victory and I am preparing the message I have to address to the citizens, if I am elected president
And you've made it clear that if you are not elected president, you will retire from politics.
When I said that I am going all out, that I don't have a plan B, it's because it's true. I, due to institutional dignity, cannot be the head of the opposition. And I want to say this very clearly to the citizens of Catalonia, because I think they also want it from their politicians. It is clear that I am working for my victory and I am currently preparing the message I must address to the citizens, if I am elected president. But I also know what I have to do if this is not the case. I don't know what the other candidates will do, I don't know what Mr Illa will do, I don't know what president Aragonès will do, but they are not in the same conditions as me. I do know what I will do and I think everyone can understand that the role of the 130th president of the Generalitat is not to act as head of the opposition.
The amnesty law will have to be applied beforehand. Are you afraid that the arrest warrant against you will not be lifted, that the judge will not apply the law or that you will be investigated for terrorism, in the Tsunami case?
I am clear that this could also happen, but I'm not afraid of it, nor do I fear it. It's a possibility. When it comes to the Spanish judiciary, all the precautions you can take are still very few, anything is possible. It is clear that when there is an electoral campaign they want to take part, they have already done so in this one as well. But it is true, nevertheless, that things have changed a lot. There is an amnesty law, which will be in force and must be complied with. Can the judges subvert or declare themselves in rebellion? Yes, but this has consequences, for them. Could it be that I am arrested for breaking the law? It could be, but they'll be forced to let me go. I think they'll have no choice but to apply the law. They don't like it, obviously. They'll try, if there is any loophole that we have left, to seize it in order to leave it as damaged as possible. We think that it can't be sunk. Even in the event that it is suspended so that an appeal is presented to the European Court of Justice or the Constitutional Court, the law must still be applied in relation to interim court measures. What they will do, I don't know. We started an amnesty law in the Spanish state that they didn't want in any way, we have to persevere in this strategy because they also know that they are scraping the bottom of the barrel, they are at the end of it, and they haven't achieved the main goal, which is my extradition. Will they want the photo of my arrest? I don't know, but that won't deter me from going to Parliament on the day of the plenary session.
We have every legal aspect in our favour for them not to arrest me. There is uncertainty and risk, yes. But I won't avoid it
In other words, you will be there on the day of the investiture debate even if there's a risk of arrest...
Yes, I want to make that clear. I think that, moreover, we have every legal aspect in our favour for this not to happen. The risk is there, but I won't avoid it, because I think it will be clear, before the eyes of everyone, that the Spanish judiciary is indeed more of an obstacle to the rule of law than the necessary ally that the European Union expects. In addition, the return is a fact of great significance and importance, beyond Catalonia and Spain. There's been a lot of hype, an arrest live on the media may happen, and some people are dying to see it happen, but it would be a firestorm, because it's clear not only that I'm not a terrorist, but that no arrest related to any case is justified.
At the moment, the judge has summoned you to testify voluntarily for the Tsunami case. Do you intend to testify?
That situation is quite amusing, because it is already so different from how we have been treated up till now. It should be noted that [the judge] already times the testimony, in a clearly conscious way, after the amnesty law has been promulgated in the official gazette, for a case that is covered by the hypothetical amnesty. Second, she asks for a voluntary statement. Third, she even proposes that I do it by video conference. It's amusing because the Supreme Court itself refused to allow me to testify via video conference with regard to the first warrant issued for my arrest, in 2017, and every other time I've tried. Moreover, it is not accompanied by an arrest warrant. I think it's the clearest sign that this is a flash in the pan, that they feel obliged to do something. I can't say I was surprised either. I expected the Supreme Court to break into the election campaign, but in the end I think it's all mostly a gesture.
Are you worried about prison? You were already in the German prison of Neumünster...
And in Sasser [in Sardinia]. I know it, a little. Obviously, I cannot compare myself to my colleagues who have spent three and a half years in prison. And I can't say that I've been harassed in either of the two prisons I've been to. The treatment was always correct. That sudden impact felt by every normal person, who never in their life thought they wouldn't have to deal with prisons or even with judges, that impact is over. It's very human, on the other hand. The emotional impact of entering a prison is unavoidable. This happens to everyone, but that is over. When you're arrested in Germany, the uncertainty of being put on a plane and extradited is there, but it not only didn't break me, it made me stronger. And the experience in Italy was different. I knew perfectly well that it would have no recourse. What would also happen if there was an arrest in Spain. It has no recourse. If the will of the people of Catalonia, expressed through the Parliament of Catalonia, is clear and resounding, the Spanish judiciary's ability to stick its hand into Catalan ballot boxes is over.
I may have felt politically alone, or sometimes abandoned by someone in my political circle, but never by the people
Now you have years of experience, but at first, when you were arrested in Germany, for example, or in the first weeks of exile, did you think about letting it all go? That you couldn't continue down this path?
Honestly, no. I have to say that I have never felt alone. I may have felt politically alone, or sometimes abandoned by someone in my political circle. But at the level of the people, not only have I not felt alone, but thanks to the support of so many people, so many anonymous people, on a day-to-day basis, in any way, simply by sending you a fridge magnet, or sending a fuet sausage, or coming to take a picture at the House of the Republic, or sending a book, a bouquet of flowers, whatever, you made it known that you were there. At no time did the idea of giving up occur. Never.
You talk about abandonment by someone. By whom?
It is clear that the pro-independence world has moved a lot in recent years. There are many people who have questioned even exile itself, who, moreover, have said just about everything about us, or have said just about everything about me. Not even in those moments, which are sometimes sad, because people you know have said something, or people who have stood side by side with you, not in those moments... I've been disappointed, but it didn't take away my desire to end what brought me into exile. I went there for very specific reasons. And I've defended them, always. When things went wrong, when we felt very isolated, when no one paid attention to us, when no one visited us from all of those who now come and negotiate... I never thought of leaving anything. I came to finish a job. Going through exile has been a discomfort, it has made us lose many years, it has led us to division and demobilization, we have had to dedicate ourselves above all to the anti-repressive struggle, rather than to how we build a republic, how we build the project to finish the independence process. It has made us waste a lot of time. We've stopped relating [to each other] too much, politically, we have distanced ourselves too much. But the goal, for me, is intact
There are those who are only interested in power for power's sake. I took good note of that. You have to know how to act when things are going well and when they are not
Of these absences that you were talking about, which one has hurt you the most? Who did you hope to see that did not show up?
No. I don't want to reproach anyone. But it is true that in October 2017 there were many people who even broke into my office to pressure, legitimately. They seemed to have a lot of interest in reconciling situations. There are some of these that are gone, gone completely. And now that they can smell damage, you see that they send messages... There are people who don't, of course? There are people who have been there since day one. There are people with whom I have absolute gratitude, because they took some risks. There are people who are not pro-independence. Like Joan Gaspart, for example. He is a person to whom I will always be grateful, he does not share my ideas at all, but he carried himself on a human level, extraordinarily well, taking a risk. There are others who are only interested in power for power's sake. I also took good note of this. I think you have to know how to be when things are going well and when things are not going so well. But I don't say that in a sense of reproach. I call it learning, too. The list could be long or not. There are people who have always been there. President Mas has always been there, for example. President Pujol has never failed, he is always there. President Torra, one way or another. We may have discrepancies, but they have always been there. Speaker Borràs... many people. But others, who were traveling companions at a certain moment, considered it too risky to stand by my side or to signal themselves at a moment, as I say, when the target was very big. There is still a target, but now it may not be as big.
There are people who have taken a risk by coming to see me
And who surprised you? Who wouldn't you have expected to come to you at a time like this but they showed up?
No, I don't want to compromise them either. I know that if I were to name names now, apart from Joan Gaspart, who I have already told you, showed me a human quality that I and my family will always be grateful for, there are others who have taken a risk by coming to see me, that have remained discreet and I don't want to harm them, because unfortunately it is still penalized to come and take a photo with me or come and relate to me.
It has disappointed me how we have weakened ourselves
Of all these years, what has been the most difficult moment you remember?
There are many of them. There are personal ones. Obviously my father's death. Saying goodbye to my dad over Skype was a tough, tough moment. Personal things. My oldest daughter was 10 years old when I left, now she is 16 going on 17. Imagine the growth process of the people you love the most, the things my wife has had to endure. All this is difficult. But I have always kept the personal part aside. On a political level, what has affected me most has not been fighting against Spain or confronting Spain, this has motivated me. Every time Spain poses a difficulty, a problem, a persecution, an espionage, this motivates me, because I have gone to defend; and I think I can now present a very strong list of services of resistance against Spain's attacks. I have been disappointed when from within our own ranks we have weakened ourselves. And to see the regression in some areas, significant regression as a country, the loss of self-esteem, the loss of pride, the loss of hope and enthusiasm, the demobilization, the regression of the Catalan language... All this scares me, the poor quality of the Catalan government's administration, all these things that we took for granted that we could have, this affects me and I think that the most difficult part of all these years is not being able to have done more to prevent these situations, some of which I'm sure are partly my responsibility as well.
Now you were talking to me, for example, about your daughters, who were small when you left, about the death of your father. From a personal point of view, how did you experience this?
This is a decision we discussed, my wife and I, and I think we followed it scrupulously. We decided that we wouldn't make our personal situation a public spectacle, that we wouldn't talk about it, that we wouldn't go crying on TV shows, explaining our sorrows. Because it is clear that on a family level, on a personal level, the situation is very difficult. We said we wouldn't do that, we didn't talk about it, we put up with it, we left the house in tears and that was it. Sometimes we talked with my daughters about how we don't have the right to cry. We can't complain. Apart from the fact that we are healthy, we can visit each other every week, we can have video conferences every day, we can move. There are a lot of people in Europe at the moment who are in absolutely borderline conditions, who have every right in the world to complain. We cannot victimize ourselves when in Europe itself there are thousands of people who are in refugee camps and have no hope. And I think that at the family level we have worked very well. My daughters are happy, and I am very happy with them. But they have also acquired a huge social conscience of which I am very proud.
We have managed to prevent the main objective of the Spanish repression, which is for the president of the Generalitat to be handcuffed and delivered to a Spanish prison
Your say you prepared yourselves. Did everything go as you hoped it would?
There is no instruction manual for what happens when you go into exile. In fact, when we came into exile we were in the open, we didn't know what would happen to us, we didn't know. The first thing the lawyer told us was that you have at least two months. And then everything went on to the point where it has been six and a half years, and we have managed to prevent the main objective of the Spanish repression, which is for the president of the Generalitat to be handcuffed and delivered, if it were possible in a bad way, to a Spanish prison. Therefore, there is no instruction manual, but we have been adapting to the situation. And we all put effort into it. And in the end, I won't say that we have normalized it, because we have never normalized it, but we have adopted a way of living this experience that has made us stronger, that didn't knock us down, either emotionally or politically. And that gave us a lot of peace of mind. We made friends, too, naturally. We made great acquaintances. We were also able to acquire a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge. And this has also enriched us on a personal level.
What he would never have done is to negotiate to obtain benefits like a pardon in exchange for surrendering the institution of the Generalitat
And did you think it would be that long?
I thought it would be even longer. I had assumed that, and we had talked about it, and so I told the PSOE people who came to visit me, first of all, to see if I would accept the pardons when people were still in prison, that I was willing to stay in exile for the rest of my life. I'm not looking for personal shortcuts. I know the risk it represents: one, dying in exile; two, that one day you will be extradited. I assume this risk. But what I would never do would be to negotiate for myself to obtain benefits like a pardon, to be able to return to Girona sooner, in exchange for surrendering the institution of the Generalitat. I would never have done that.
It is admirable the anonymous people who contributed with their grain of help to maintaining our position, the dignity of exile
At your side there has always been minister Toni Comín, with whom you've shared a seat in the European Parliament, but also lesser-known faces such as Jami Matamala and Josep Alay, what have they represented?
They have represented everything. They gave what few people would give. They made themselves prime targets. In the case of Josep Alay at a very high cost. Jami was there from day one. I was in the car with him when I went into exile, together with Lluís Escolà, and not exactly in a car boot. And I want to go back with him. There is the symbolism of loyalty and people who gamble everything, expecting nothing in return. This is of great value too, an asset of the country. This is what gives us pride. They are the most visible cases, but not the only ones. There have been a lot of people, a great many. It is admirable the anonymous people who have contributed with their grain of help to maintaining our position, the dignity of exile, the security, being able to even help pay lawyers' bills, when I was arrested in Germany. So many people have mobilized themselves that the return is also a tribute to this capacity of the Catalan people to resist repression that scares them. And do it successfully. Catalans can make many baskets from these wickers. There are many people like this. It is with these people that we have to achieve independence. And not look so much at whether on a given day you said something or on another day you weren't up to the task. We have already talked about it a lot and I think we have already beaten ourselves up too much. Now it's time to take action, it's time to take the initiative.
On a personal level, I felt disappointed with Clara Ponsatí. She said things that are not fair
But there are also ruptures, one very obvious, with Clara Ponsatí, who will run in these elections on another list. Did that hurt?
She has hurt me in personal matters, because I think she has said things that are not fair. I respect everyone's political choices. I even respect that she is standing for a new party and continuing in the Junts seat. I won't be the one to rub salt in the wound. Yes, I can say that on a personal level I have been disappointed, but politically, she has every right in the world to do what she considers best for the country.
Do you think she should give up her seat in the European Parliament?
It's a decision that belongs to her. I know the message I used to top the list, I know how many votes we had. I know what I would do in her situation. But I insist, it's a very personal decision. I won't get into it because I don't want to argue unnecessarily either. Yes I can say, I think people will understand perfectly well, that I have personal reasons to be personally disappointed.
I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for Boye. Even his adversaries must recognize his brilliance in strategy
Another very important person during all these years has been the lawyer Gonzalo Boye. His defence strategy has marked the entire evolution of what exile has meant.
He has been decisive and has paid a high price for it. I still remember the first time we met at the Hotel President in Brussels, and he asked me "what kind of defence do you want? Do you want to spend a few years in prison or do you want to keep fighting? Because I can do both." "I want to keep fighting," I replied. "Perfect, he said, it's my choice too." And this is the strategy I entrusted to him and it is what he has followed with great professionalism, at a very high cost. I think that even his adversaries must recognize his brilliance in strategy. I wouldn't be here today talking to you if it wasn't for Gonzalo Boye.
What will you do when you return to Girona?
Go to my house, with my family, with my wife, with my daughters and smell those beautiful smells, and then go to Amer, obviously, to see my father's grave and see my mother.
Would you do it over again?
Yes. There are things that I wouldn't. I have already said that there are things I would not do, but the responsibility of assuming the presidency of the Generalitat also entails these sacrifices. I would defend the institution of the Generalitat again. I even believe that the presidents who preceded me before these elections, in the same situation as me, would have also preserved the institution. I think they would have avoided being handcuffed, put on show in a National Police van and humiliated in front of a Spanish judge and in a Spanish prison. I think they would have done everything to try to save the institution. And I would do it again, yes.
The amnesty was a taboo. We have got something from Spain that they did not want to give in any way. It is a political victory
And the way in which you return? Will you close the wound that exile represented or does this wound never close?
We keep the personal consequences to ourselves. And there are some. But politically, for me, it is a day of great joy, the amnesty. It is a day of great joy that we have the right to celebrate, to smile. It is enough that they can take away from us the right to celebrate a victory that Spain did not want. The amnesty was taboo, it was the devil. Salvador Illa himself said it a thousand times. We have got something from Spain that they did not want to give in any way. Don't we think that's a win? Of course it's not enough. It is clear that this doesn't end the state's repressive drive. Of course not. But damn, if it's a political victory, and it's a victory that we have sweated for, and that we have snatched from the hands of the Spanish state, which did not want it. What the Spanish state proposed to me was a pardon. And I refused it, I don't know how many people would have refused a pardon in my situation after several years in exile. I really don't know, but I turned it down. I told them, "No, what's needed is an amnesty", they told me to forget it. "Well, we'll see you then." And now we have seen each other and we've achieved this, so that's a reason for me to be happy.