The Catalan parliamentary elections on May 12th may also have a considerable impact on Spanish politics, as the president-in-exile and Together for Catalonia (Junts) candidate, Carles Puigdemont, admits. In the second part of our interview which ElNacional.cat conducted in Perpinyà, Puigdemont evaluates the politics of agreements between his party and the government of Pedro Sánchez, and the talks that both maintain in Switzerland via an international mediation apparatus. He affirms that he has no intention of negotiating with the Catalan Socialist (PSC) leader Salvador Illa after the May 12th elections, but warns that Junts will not continue to side with the PSOE government in the event that the Catalan Parliament sees an operation similar to that of the Barcelona City Council, when Xavier Trias won the elections, but was barred from the mayor's office due to an agreement between Jaume Collboni's Socialists, the People's Party (PP) and Barcelona en Comú.
💬 Puigdemont interview, part 1: "I am alarmed by Catalonia's regression as a country and its poor quality government"
In what way might the result of the Catalan elections affect the stability of the Spanish government? How could it affect the future of Pedro Sánchez's government?
Depending on the circumstances, quite a lot. In other words, if Mr Illa does a Collboni, he already knows what the consequences will be. That is obvious. For someone to depend on the votes of the People's Party and, of course, also of the Comuns, to achieve a majority to remove from the Barcelona mayoralty the person who the most Barcelonans voted to be mayor, no one would understand that happening in the Parliament of Catalonia. No one would understand if we continued to support a person who did not win the elections, Mr Pedro Sánchez, and who is prime minister thanks to our votes. What future could the agreement with the PSOE have under these conditions? It's not our situation that concerns us, it's the question of what we can achieve with a party that doesn't meet or doesn't respect certain minimums. We couldn't go very far. Not for us, for Catalonia. What can we learn from a government that is unable to respect a majority of citizens, if that is the case?
And if there is a majority that gives government to the PSC. Would this not affect Junts's support for Pedro Sánchez's government?
It depends, it depends on the situation in which that happens.
If there is a PSC victory and a [left-wing] tripartite is constructed?
If there is no victory for independentism, if the pro-independence parties are not able to form a majority in Parliament because the numbers do not add up, there is nothing to say. It is the will of the citizens of Catalonia and, therefore, also legitimately, we will decide. It is clear that in that context, as I have said before, I will not be the one leading the negotiations with the PSOE. It will be other people.
Yes, but in any case, do you think this will prevent Junts from continuing to support Pedro Sánchez's government?
I don't know. It's a scenario that we haven't contemplated. The scenario we have contemplated is only one: here, there will be a sufficient majority for the presidency of the Generalitat to be assumed by an independentist. And that for Mr Illa to be able to assume the presidency, he would need a very large absolute majority, which now, if it is not with the PP's support, I see as difficult.
There is nothing to negotiate with Illa over the investiture. If we have a solid majority, he'll know what he has to do
And if you won the elections, but somehow needed the support of the PSC, would you negotiate with Salvador Illa?
No, no, no. There is nothing to negotiate from the point of view of the investiture of a president. If we have a solid majority, he'll know what to do, but we won't trade anything with the PSC. He knew it perfectly well in Barcelona, and Illa and Collboni decided to agree with the PP. I only hope, for the sake of Catalans, that this does not happen again in Catalonia. And not for our own good, but rather, the thing is that it hasn't gone well in Barcelona: there is no budget in Barcelona, Barcelona has a very thin, very precarious majority, which is unable to move forward with the serious and important challenges facing the city. I don't want this for Catalonia. He may want to save his political party, which is in dire straits, and he wants to take power for power's sake, but who will he budget with? How will he make progress with the challenges facing the country? He won't be able to do that. Therefore, I hope that the Catalan interest, the interest of the country, prevails over the interest of the PSOE.
In these elections there's another candidate that could get representation, according to the polls, which is [far right] Aliança Catalana. What kind of relationship could you have?
I have no relationship with the Catalan Alliance. Also, I think I read that their candidate is touting that I must be given a punishment at the polls. For us, the relationship we have with the independence movement is with the parties with whom we constructed October 2017. And this is the first need we have to rebuild relationships. We share a series of values, of respect for fundamental rights, and we have no problem with whoever shares them. But let's not put a bandage on before there is any wound. Three years ago there was another political party that also had many options to win seats, the PDeCAT. It obtained zero MPs and 77,000 votes. Let's not get distracted. This does not apply to either PDeCAT or the Catalan Alliance. This depends on whether we want Catalonia to get out of the hole and decadence it has got into, and raise people's morale, hopes and enthusiasm. Or if we want to put it in the hands of Mr Illa, who is a gentleman who's starting point is a no: no to improving the funding system, no to the referendum, he said no to the amnesty, he says no to many things. And, moreover, when he has Madrid in front of him, Mr Illa is not able to defend the Catalans' yes to so many things that we want. This is what the elections are about.
During these years you have been unrelenting with king Felipe VI. If you are elected president, will you go to meet the king?
The normal thing would be for the heads of state to meet with each other, that would be the normal thing. I believe that they need to reflect on the role they should have had in a democratic state, when there is a conflict and where the Constitution foresees that the monarchy has an arbitral role, which obviously did not happen on October 3rd [2017]. We'll have to see what we do when the time comes. There is an immense majority of people in Catalonia, and I include in this people who are not independence supporters, people who want to live in a republic. I think [the monarchy] have a lot of homework to do on Catalonia.
I don't know to what extent Felipe VI has assumed his error or not, they must do their internal analyzes as well
You have repeatedly denounced the intervention made by Felipe VI on October 3rd. Have you received any response from the royal palace at any point?
No. I didn't expect it either, surely they don't want to give me any answers either. I have to say that until October 3rd I had a good relationship with them, because it seemed to me that the monarchical institution had to be preserved from political struggles, I believed that its role was different. It is clear that from October 3rd this changed. But a head of state must be neutral and must be conciliatory. And if there is a serious conflict, he must act to try to see if solutions can be found through negotiation. Opting for one part of the Catalans and forgetting the other part I think is a mistake. I don't know to what extent this error has been assumed or not, I haven't spoken to them, I naturally don't have a relationship, as you can imagine, with them, but surely they must do their internal analyzes as well, which these days I would like to know about.
If things go the way we think and want them to go, the conversation with Sánchez will happen between a president and a prime minister
And what are relations with Pedro Sánchez like? Because you were waiting for a meeting that had to be held. What forecast do you have for the pending conversation with Pedro Sánchez?
It's a pending conversation that I want to have with him. There is agreement that this conversation must be had. But the circumstances did not allow it. I don't think now is the time either, in the election pre-campaign. We wanted to do it once the amnesty law had been approved, but then we had all the stumbling blocks of the elections. We have to do it. I want to do it, but I want to do it calmly, not to look for a photo-opportunity and say, that's it, we've met. No, no. There are many things to talk about, so many things to talk about. And probably, if things go the way we think they're going to go and the way we want them to go, that conversation will happen between a president and a prime minister.
Therefore it should be a conversation either at the Palau de la Generalitat or at the Moncloa [palace in Madrid]. Will this be the meeting?
Probably, yes. Maybe there must be something else before that, out of the limelight, perhaps.
Of course I'm willing to talk to Feijóo. I'll never have any problem meeting with anyone to defend Catalonia
And with Núñez Feijóo, what is the relationship? Are you willing to talk to him?
I have no relationship with Núñez Feijóo. I don't even have his phone number. But of course I am willing to talk to anyone who is interested. I'll talk to everyone. I'll never have any problem meeting with anyone to defend Catalonia. I've never had one. I'm surprised that in all these years they have not sent regular emissaries to find out what the exiled Catalans think. I don't find this natural, anyone with a little common sense would have done so: what does he think, what is happening, what plans are there... Even the Franco regime did it to [communist leader] Santiago Carrillo twice. Carrillo himself explained it to me in an interview. Twice they sent emissaries to speak with Carrillo to see what were the plans at the time of that person they made out to be the devil incarnate. I want to defend Catalonia. Our goal is not to decide who governs Spain or to create a left-wing front in Spain... Spain will decide what it wants. We are going to defend Catalonia against anyone. And if one day the Spanish decide that it is Mr Feijóo, the same as if it were someone else, we would negotiate with them, of course we would.
The meetings with international mediation are being held, they touch on substantive issues, and I take part in all of them. We have the duty to see how far they can take us
At the moment, you are negotiating, under a mediation mechanism, with the Spanish government: how are the talks going? The few things that are known is that the planned schedule is being met.
Yes. And we won't say any more than that, because that is the agreement we reached. It is a very serious issue, which we take very seriously, and I must say that I thank the PSOE for taking it seriously. Therefore, the communication that arises from what we do in Switzerland will always be agreed beforehand. We will simply say what we've agreed to say, which is that the meetings are happening, they touch on substantive issues, and they are being held in the presence of an international mediation mechanism. And I take part, moreover, in all of them. We have a duty to continue and to find out how far we can go. We have not compromised the stability of the legislature, we have not committed ourselves, with our investiture votes, to support the budget, as others have done. We have explicitly said no, we will negotiate case by case, appointment by appointment, law by law. And I think they've already realized what our methodology is, if they didn't know.
One of the points on the table in this negotiation is self-determination. Is the goal to propose a new referendum?
What we will talk about with the Swiss negotiation will stay in Switzerland until we decide that we have to make a public statement. It's a very serious issue, it's not an electoral issue, it's not a headline issue, it's the issue. And we will devote efforts, patience, maximum discretion so that there are positive results. We won't explain anything.
And in the run-up to the Catalan election, what proposal will Junts make regarding the right to self-determination?
It won't surprise anyone. We, and I also state this in the political agreement with the PSOE, do not renounce - and what's more, we consider it legitimate and legal - the referendum and the declaration of independence. We have not given up on unilateralism and we must get ready. 'We must get ready' means we must have a social and political majority. Today there is no social and political majority. But there are the elements for it to happen. In addition, we can bring along one more thing, which is a preparation and an expertise and a knowledge of ourselves and also of the opponent that we did not have in 2017. And we can bring along one other thing too, which is the sophistication of international knowledge about what is happening in Catalonia. Because we have not dedicated ourselves to being in exile simply to pass the time of day. We have worked on the ground every day to internationalize, to spread the knowledge and to reflect on how we can better prepare things than we did in October 2017, so that they turn out well.
With self-determination, we shouldn't force things, nor talk about calendars, nor procedures
And how can it be done? How can it be prepared?
As you can imagine, this is not the time to talk about it, and I don't think we should force things, nor talk about calendars, nor procedures. It's very serious. I want to do it from the evening of the 12th. It is clear to me that everything we have been saying and doing is valid. And now it's time to put it into practice.
They are pursuing me for all the cases, my name appears in all the cases, others do not appear. There are people who are very fired up who don't have any problems. And it's because we haven't gone to sleep
And how will you mobilize the pro-independence voter who is disappointed about how it all ended?
There is no magic formula, but I think we need to speak clearly to these people. I am very proud of what we did, we did things that are historic victories for Catalonia, like October 1st. We also know what we learned from all this, we know where our own strengths and weaknesses are, and understand even better where those of our adversary are. We have a solid external structure, a relational network that we didn't have in 2017. When we say we have to do things better, we mean not only that we must not stop doing them, but that when we do them they must be more assertive. Nobody had an instruction manual back then, nor do we have one now, but we can give some examples of knowledge and expertise, and especially resilience, in the face of a Spanish state, about which we know how it can act. They are pursuing me for all the cases, my name appears in all the cases, others do not appear. There are people who are very fired up who don't have any problems, they don't appear in any case. It is for some reason, because we haven't gone to sleep, not the Council of the Republic, nor the work of exile, nor the European Parliament, we haven't gone to sleep. And that's probably why our names appear in all the files brought up by the Spanish judges. And, seriously, without unity, without being able to return, at a single table, to the conversation that brought us to October 2017, we won't be able to do anything. With all the discrepancies, which I can understand, with all the criticism, but I think we have gone too far with self-criticism, with self-flagellation... We haven't been defeated. We have done great things with very few resources.
But that doesn't hide the fact that there are still people who are angry.
There are people who are angry and people who are very angry. There are people who probably won't vote, yet. I trust that they are a minority now, because we have a lot at stake with that, a lot at stake even in terms of nation. And now it's time to make a move. I have decided to put myself on the line partly for that reason. I haven't tried to find a plan B, I haven't sought the security of the European Parliament if things don't go well. I put myself on the line, because I think we all have to do that now. The number two also does so. They are putting themselves on the line, the people who have pledged to go on our list and take on the responsibility of governing.