The negotiation with the Spanish Socialists (PSOE) in Brussels was not easy. The top leadership of Together for Catalonia (Junts per Catalunya) met twice in the Belgian capital - on Thursday November 2nd, and then again last Monday, the 6th - without being able to complete the agreement for the investiture of Pedro Sánchez as Spanish prime minister. The amnesty law, and Junts's demand that it should include lawfare cases, complicated the negotiation and at times seemed to threaten to derail it. Finally, Carles Puigdemont's party gave the green light to the pact last Thursday, November 9th after five days of exchanging proposals. The president of Junts, Laura Borràs (Barcelona, 1975), was one of the four faces of that negotiation on behalf of the pro-independence party, alongside the exiled Catalan president Puigdemont, the general secretary, Jordi Turull, and the spokesperson for Congress, Míriam Nogueras. During the course of those days, their coming and going from the offices and through the corridors of the European Parliament were almost the only image of intense negotiations and with such an unexpected evolution that it even forced its protagonists to visit the Belgian shops to stock up on spare clothes. Borràs analyzes in an interview with ElNacional.cat, the agreement that was finally reached with the PSOE.
What would you say to Junts voters who have not yet understood that during the electoral campaign you promised them that they would not invest Pedro Sánchez and now, instead, you have just closed an agreement to do exactly that?
What we have always said is that we do not hadn over our votes "in exchange for nothing", and the phrase is from Pedro Sánchez himself. Junts is in politics to ensure that our strength is translated into actions that allow us to reach the goal for which we voted on October 1st 2017, which is for a more prosperous, fairer country, with more opportunities for everyone and, therefore, a free country. What we cannot do is let the power of the people, transformed into votes, be for nothing. Practicing politics means negotiation. Practicing politics means making use of the power you have to force the other to negotiate. This is what we are doing: making peoples' votes count, not taking them for granted, not giving them away for nothing.
What we cannot do is let the power of the people, transformed into votes, be for nothing. Practicing politics means negotiation. Practicing politics means making use of the power you have to force the other to negotiate
Do you understand that people criticise this accord, including some people who were in the Junts management and close to you?
What I understand is a lack of trust and skepticism, because that is shared. I understand the feeling of maximum prevention in the face of a negotiation with an opposite number, the PSOE, who, when in the Spanish government has failed to comply with many of the questions it proposed. That is why conducting a negotiation at the highest level, as this has been, requires all these precautions, guarantees, with an international mediator. President Puigdemont insists very much on talking about an international verification mechanism that stands on four legs, which will have meetings scheduled from now on, monthly, will take place outside Spain and will serve as a guarantee mechanism to see whether or not this deal moves forward.
Four verifiers?
Four verifiers.
With what profiles?
They are people of the highest level, who provide a guarantee in the field in which they are carrying out this advice and this verification. They need to be able to work comfortably. We are seeing what reactions the amnesty law is already generating: no one has seen it, no one has read it, it has not been registered and we already have positions taken preventively, manifestos, demonstrations,... Well, imagine the pressure that would be exerted on this mechanism. For that reason, we are taking the pressure off it.
Who the four verifiers are will not be known. One will act as coordinator and will be known, but not the rest
So we won't know who the verifiers are?
At the moment, we won't know who they are, and what we will know is that there is one person from these four who will act as coordinator. And this identity will be known, but not the rest.
Can we now know who this coordinator will be?
No.
Will the meeting be held at the same location or at different locations each month?
This will worked out depending on the circumstances. In principle, it will take place at the end of this month of November and, therefore, we'll see if the logistics must also change as a measure of protection against these expectations that have been generated.
The PSOE has made movements to recognize things that three months ago seemed impossible. Out of necessity, not out of conviction
Will the meetings always be discreet or secret?
We used the communicative blackout technique to preserve, to try not to derail, this negotiation, because we took it very seriously and rigorously. It has been headed by president Puigdemont in a very clear way. Now begins a new phase in which work continues and which caused a turn-around - I call it a Copernican turn - because the PSOE moved in the recognition of certain things that three months ago (we are no longer talking about a year, not three or six years, but three months ago) it seemed impossible that they were recognizing this, and they are doing so. We know that they also do it out of necessity, not out of conviction. For this reason, we all need to take our precautions and we have done so by way of silence. And now, in this international verification mechanism, we also remain silent to allow them to do the best possible job.
Will the same people attend all meetings?
That remains to be seen. What it's all about, in the end, is being able to work, working out of the spotlight, delivering results and having all the expert people who can contribute things, helping to reach the goal and being able to participate.
In the face of the constant 'no' from the state, it could be that the unilateralism that we claim is endorsed even by an international observer
In the four-page agreement with the PSOE, what is made clear is that at the first meeting, what Junts will propose will be the holding of a self-determination referendum through Article 92 of the Constitution. For its part, the PSOE says it will put the development of the 2006 Statute on the table. Seen in perspective, is it possible to reach a point of understanding?
This third party that will join the debate [the verifier] will have to see what elements the Spanish state offers to resolve the political conflict. Because we Catalans arrive with the work done. We will have to see what the justification of the government of the Spanish state will be, when they say here that they consider that there are other mechanisms of agreement. A third party may find themselves in the situation of having to say: listen, these gentlemen have done everything they had to do. They have done it for many years, in a democratic way, in a way endorsed by the citizens. What have they received? A constant 'no'. Therefore, it could be that the unilateralism that we claim is endorsed even by an international observer. This is what will have to be seen, the arguments of each side with an international verifier.
Among the criticisms that have been made of the agreement signed with the PSOE, it has been criticized that the agreed points are not sufficiently defined. Why has it been done this way?
Yes. There are people who criticise this agreement as lacking in specifics, that there is no list of things that have been achieved. You would be surprised at the number of professional sectors that have sent us demands to raise with the state, who think they can now find a way to incorporate these. It wasn't so much about listing a set of measurements as it was about opening up these various issues, working through them and preserving as much information as possible.
With the investiture agreement, has Junts also committed its vote for the budgets?
Absolutely not. There will be the votes of the Junts deputies for the investiture. The rest of the legislature will be determined by the progress on our demands. What we will do is, at each moment, have conditional or timing clauses. I give the example of the Catalan language, because the subject of the officiality of Catalan in Europe was one of the issues that we put on the table when there was the constitution of the Congress Bureau: this has a timetable that, in this case, is determined by Europe, but we will set a deadline. From that moment on, we will reconsider our votes. The same for any of the issues.
The agreement does not provide for budget support at all. It will be determined by the progress, for which we will have a timetable
Are these timetables agreed with the PSOE?
This is our work tool, which we will bring to the verification mechanism, but it is the way to manage this timing and conditional basis that I was describing. In other words, they are not votes that can be taken for granted for the entire legislature. The legislature will be determined based on the progress in the verification mechanism and, therefore, we, who have reached a deal over this monthly calendar, will arrive with certain proposals.
Do you have more issues scheduled?
We've worked on some of the issues that have been coming up, yes. For example, for us, the issue of removing the consideration [of the independence movement] as terrorism and the state intelligence directive were very important to us, and this has already been corrected before signing this agreement.
Before the investiture vote, what other issues must be closed?
The things that have not yet been closed, such as the amnesty law, are still being finalized. We will continue to maintain silence to avoid leaks that might have judicial consequences. We are hearing a rumbling among the judges' robes in this country, so we don't need to give them any hints.
To defend the unity of the Spanish state, they will come to question the basis of the rule of law and essential democratic principles
How can 'lawfare' enter the amnesty law?
The experts are working so that it is included in a technical-legal way that allows it to be recognized. The discourse of the PSOE over this whole period has been to turn the page, to say that this was a conflict between Catalans and it is over. Look, at the moment we still have nothing more than a signed agreement and the conflict already seems to be between Spaniards. It has ceased to be between Catalans and now the conflict is between Spaniards. Because what we have put on the table is what we have been saying all this time: in order to defend the unity of the Spanish state, they will come to question the basis of the rule of law and essential democratic principles. And that's what we're seeing with what's happening in the streets. What is happening there has led to accusations of terrorism here. What is taking place, only through reaching an agreement, is proving more destabilizing for the state than anything else.
Will your case enter into this amnesty law?
We didn't talk about personal cases. The president negotiated as president-in-exile, the pact was concluded in Brussels, not in Barcelona or Madrid, because he is in exile as a result of all those actions he carried out within the state. He was the legitimate president and Parliament was dissolved. Sometimes it is said that symbols are not important, so I think the symbolic dimension of all this is important because it is an absolute correction. Now there are a lot of people talking about renouncing things: we haven't renounced anything. The PSOE has renounced many of the principles it has asserted over the years.
We haven't renounced anything. The PSOE has renounced many of the principles it has asserted over the years
But even if you don't talk about names, can you be included in this amnesty?
I have never looked for personal solutions, among other things, because when they have been offered to me I have rejected them. I had a trial without due process, where if I had wanted to make a deal I could have done so. It's not about talking about personal situations, it's about repairing everything that has been suffered and lawfare is one of those aspects. Have I suffered? Yes. Should lawfare enter into the amnesty for it to be comprehensive and restorative? That too.
You said that when it was offered to you, you turned it down. What are you referring to?
I had a trial without due process, but there were other people in my trial who did make deals.
I have never looked for personal solutions. When they've been offered to me, I've rejected them.
The Republican Left now welcomes you to the path of negotiation. How do you interpret that?
Well, I won't go into how everyone decides to negotiate. To practice politics is to negotiate. We must move from a dialogue that is empty to a negotiation that is full.
We need to move from a dialogue that is empty to a negotiation that is full
President Puigdemont said that the days of in exchange for nothing are over. That's a direct criticism of ERC, isn't it?
President Puigdemont speaks very clearly. The formulation of "in exchange for nothing" was said by Pedro Sánchez, giving his thanks for the votes for his 2019 investiture, at which we voted 'no'.
Will Puigdemont be able to return to Catalonia with the amnesty?
We have worked to remedy this repression. Exile has been one of its manifestations, which is still visible. It is understood that, in an amnesty phase, those in exile will effectively cease to be in exile and will be able to return home.
Do you think that this competition between ERC and Junts when negotiating with the PSOE has harmed the achievement of an agreement?
I don't like the word competition. I have always been a defender of unity. In fact, in 2019 I proposed that the pro-independence parties go together, because unity was more necessary than ever at that time. Competing is not our goal, we seek to achieve goals that are not partisan, that are national. It seems to me that this agreement is transparent. To begin with, there are no logos in the signing of this agreement, because what we are proposing is a demand of a national nature which all Catalans can feel part of.
It's understood that, in an amnesty phase, those in exile will cease to be in exile and will be able to return home
With whom in the PSOE have you negotiated these days?
It has been negotiated intensively, at the highest level, seeking to obtain an agreement that will help us resolve this political conflict.
Did Pedro Sánchez come into the talks at any point?
Allow me to remain fully discreet. The political accord has been presented. A part of this agreement is still not closed because it is the amnesty law and it is necessary to work with all our solvency for it to come to fruition. If the ending is what we expect, it won't have mattered who was there.
Are you satisfied with the agreement?
We can't say that we feel satisfied, because we are very aware of who we have sitting opposite us at thr table. We have made these moves with a maximum of caution. We are not allies of the PSOE. We speak of our different nationalities in this agreement and present ourselves as opposing actors.
A motion of no confidence has been passed in Congress before. It could happen again
If the PSOE fails to comply, will not voting for their proposals be the only thing you do?
We will have to see that, but we will indeed stop voting for their proposals if the PSOE fails to comply, of course. Their support is critical without the Junts' votes. In fact, this is the result of this parliamentary arithmetic, of their need for certain votes, not out of conviction, but out of necessity.
But aren't you considering derailing the government if they default? A motion of no confidence, for example?
We would consider ending our support. This [a motion of no confidence] has been passed in Congress before. It could happen again.