Marie Costa, mayor of Els Banys d'Arles, is not a woman who gives up easily. A member of Together for Catalonia (Junts) , the Catalan National Assembly (ANC) and the Council of the Republic, the town leader is a true veteran of the struggle to defend Catalan in one of the territories where it is spoken where it has the most difficulty surviving: Northern Catalonia, that is, the Catalan-speaking land north of the Pyrenean frontier. One of the steps it has taken has been to use Catalan in a natural way in the plenary sessions of its city council of Els Banys d'Arles (French name: Amélie-les-Bains), as has also happened in a handful of other municipalities in the French-governed territory. But this minor change has been seen as a threat by France, and the country's judiciary has taken it upon itself to prohibit the use of Catalan in council sessions. Far from complying with the ruling, Marie Costa has decided to keep the pressure on the state and continue to express herself in her own language. ElNacional.cat interviewed her to find out how she experienced this episode and how she sees the issue evolving in the future.
What was the process that led Els Banys d'Arles to use Catalan at the city council and then be struck by the ruling from the French justice system?
We followed the example of the town of Elna. In fact, previously we used to speak Catalan in council sessions, 25 municipalities used to do it, all without permission. Finally, mayor Nicolas Garcia of Elna proposed to include it directly in the council rules for the plenary session, and we did as he did. The French saw this and got scared, and then the government's prefect wrote to us and said that he forbade it. The threat by the prefect, the French state representative who is equivalent to a civil governor, scared many municipalities, and that is why some abandoned the question. For us, [the threat] has made no difference.
What was the reaction to the sentence of the Administrative Court of Montpellier prohibiting the use of Catalan?
This first trial had a very predictable outcome. But they've left us a small loophole, because they don't directly ban Catalan in the council plenary, but rather, they want to do something surreal here in Rosselló, which is to put the language on a second level if we use it. Thus, we are told to speak in French so that everyone can understand us, and then translate it into Catalan. It makes absolutely no sense.
We'll take the ruling to Strasbourg, and put the French against the ropes, because they will find in our favour
You have chosen to disobey the sentence, and have continued to speak Catalan at the plenary sessions. In addition, you have also added English.
Yes, since I like to play, I have decided to add English, to see what kind of treatment they reserve for a state language. If you had seen the opposition's face when I started speaking in English... Luckily it was possible to film because it was a real spectacle, they didn't expect it at all. We made the plenary meeting trilingual, and no one complained: the opposition, which has been so harsh against Catalan, did not say anything. They must have written privately to the prefect, but as yet I do not know. I will keep holding my plenary meetings in three languages.
Are you confident of receiving a favourable ruling in Europe?
First we will be making an appeal at the court in Toulouse over this first sentence, although we already know what they will tell us. Then we will go to the Council of State, which is a kind of Supreme Court that we have here, and which is the enforcer of the Constitution, which says that French is the only language of the Republic. The Council of State will also say that it is not constitutional, I can affirm that right now, and then we can go to Strasbourg, which is the objective. There we will put the French against the ropes, because they will find in our favour. In addition, we now have a precedent that we did not know, which Catalan president Carles Puigdemont sent us: a Bulgarian politician who ran an election campaign in Turkish, because there is a strong Turkish minority in his district. Bulgarian justice fined him, but Strasbourg upheld his action. It is exactly the same case.
Why does it bother them so much in France that four municipalities in Northern Catalonia speak Catalan in their town halls?
France is a nation that knows it does not exist, a nation-state that has colonized the nations around it and has invented a state and a country. France's motto, 'one and indivisible', is almost a religion. It is not only the politicians, but also the French officials who have a heritage of centralism, of Jacobinism, and they are the guardians of the people. They are terrible. They invent differences where there are none, and they do not want to recognize any differences between the French. It is a dogma that is paralyzing everyone.
VIDEO: The mayor of Elna, Nicolas Garcia, tells ElNacional.cat of his expectations after the hearing in Montpellier which ended up banning Catalan in council meetings
In contrast with Spain, in France no one will put me in prison or put me on trial personally for defending Catalan
Have you received support from other parts of the country where there are also regional languages being persecuted?
We have support coming to us from Brittany, the Basque Country and Corsica, with municipalities that are starting to do as we do in other parts of the country. The contagion that the French state did not want, they ended up causing it themselves. It is the French state that has made this struggle public. Since they have given us publicity, they will have to put up with it. The case has taken on a dimension that had nothing to do with how it started, which was to make Catalan official at events in our municipality. It's true that I'm pro-independence, but I'm not just fighting for Catalonia, but for all the languages of France that are completely forgotten and discriminated against.
Is there a comparison between the persecution of Catalan in Spain and in France?
Would you like to tell you a huge difference? Absolutely nothing will happen to me. No one will come to take my possessions, no one will put me in prison or sentence me personally. That is the immense difference, because there was no Francoism here like what still exists in Spain. Here there is a freedom of expression that allows you to say anything without risk. That's why we have a duty to talk about it, and that's why I take part in talk shows and interviews.
France is a nation that knows it does not exist, a nation-state that has colonized the nations around it and has invented a state and a country
Is there a risk in Spain?
In Spain, yes. We have colleagues who have been persecuted. In France they don't want to hear about anything other than the French dogma, but we don't comprise a risk for the nation-state either because in Rosselló all that remains are a herd of sheep, they say. We are not a risk for the French state like Catalonia is for Spain. And the cultural tradition means that the reaction is not the same either.
But at least in Catalonia, the Basque Country and Galicia there is more freedom to use their own languages in institutions. Does the French state persecute linguistic diversity more than Spain?
In France they clearly seek to impose monolingualism. I have always said that "the French pay, while the Spanish beat". France has paid a lot to impose French: free school, universities, a social security system unique in the world and very protective... During the pandemic people were paid to stay home, we have a protectionist state that buys people. People have abandoned their own language but in exchange for protection, in exchange for something. Until Francoism, in Spain there was an idea of pluralism that is totally non-existent in France. Here there is this monolithic thing that says that we French are not capable of having another territorial scheme if it is not something centralized and totally uniform, and that denies us the ability to exist.
What is the state of the Catalan language in Northern Catalonia?
In terms of social use, there is very little, it is a generational thing. There are two generations that have lost it and there is a hole in the middle. Today, however, there are young people learning Catalan in bilingual and immersive schools, so there is hope. Unfortunately, the Catalan you learn is delocalized and standard Catalan, but that's better than nothing. From this point of view, I dare say that things are not so bad. I am not pessimistic. I firmly believe that these nation-states that are Spain and France will be condemned by history, because you cannot deny the identity of a territory, which goes beyond a language. For example, no one would dare to say that Ireland is not Irish, even if Gaelic is residual. Or no one would say Scotland doesn't exist. These examples show that there is a cultural fact that goes beyond language, and that something as strong as identity cannot be erased.
Catalan is as respectable as Spanish, French or English, we must not hide our language or change systematically to another
And do these schools like La Bressola manage to survive or do they receive pressure from the French state?
They manage to survive. In fact, there is a waiting list that is scary, we could have double or triple the number of students we have now. The most interesting thing is that most of the parents of these students are not Catalan. They come from other regions of France and have realized that there are possibilities for professional success in the Principality, in Catalonia. I have hope for Catalan in the Principality, but also for us here.
It is important that Catalan is spoken at home in Northern Catalonia, but it must also be present in the administrations. Is that why you attach so much importance to maintaining the language in the town halls?
Exactly I want a French official who comes here to be obliged to understand Catalan. A person should not be able to refuse to serve a person who speaks Catalan. There are people of a certain age who cannot express themselves well in French when they go to hospital. They speak it, but they don't know how to explain where it hurts and with sufficient vocabulary. What do we do with these people? Do we abandon them or look for a solution so that they are cared for and understood? These are all things that we have allowed to be done to us on both sides of the border, we have put up with things because we were treated almost as racists just for asking that our language be used. To say that you represent fewer millions [than another group] and that your language is not universal is nonsense, and we should not let ourselves be told that. The Danes don't let themselves be told, for example, despite being a smaller country. It's like we always keep quiet to be elegant. No, our language is as respectable as Spanish, French or English, we must not hide our language or change systematically to another.