The mayor of Geneva, Rémy Pagani, has offered his city and all of Switzerland to act as mediators between Catalonia and Spain and find a political solution to the Catalan issue. Pagani, member of the left-wing Ensemble à Gauche party, had a meeting two weeks ago with the speaker of the Catalan Parliament, Roger Torrent, to offer his commitment to the Catalan cause, and has defended Catalonia's right to self-determination on several occasions. Interviewed by El Nacional, the mayor of the Swiss city is highly critical of the Spanish state's repression and calls on Europe to intervene in the conflict.
What did you say to the speaker Torrent?
I reiterated my commitment. I have always had the same position. On the most recent Day of the Hispanic People (October 12th), I made a speech at the Spanish Consulate in Geneva, which was applauded by most and jeered by a minority. I defended a political and negotiated solution. Because the best way is to talk about it. Invoking article 155 does not solve the problems. A time will have to come when people talk.
Have you had contact with Catalan politicians Anna Gabriel and Marta Rovira, in exile here?
I received Anna Gabriel at the beginning of year, when she arrived. And she let me know that she wanted to return to her studies here in Geneva, and that she has a tourist visa. And I attempted to help her with her integration. And I receive Marta Rovira this week.
We can't hand over to Spain people who have done no more than defending ideas
What do you think of the presence of pro-independence leaders in Switzerland?
It is not normal. The first thing is to admit that there is an underlying problem: of political freedom and freedom of expression. The Spanish Government and the legitimate Catalan authorities, like Mr Torrent, have to sit around a table and deal with the question of the people who are being pursued. The case that it is probably the most inadmissible is that of the Jordis [Sànchez and Cuixart, pro-independence civil group leaders]. Spain treats the pro-independence MPs like Erdogan treats the Kurds. This is not admissible in a European democracy.
Is it comparable to the situation of the Kurds in Turkey?
Totally. There are Kurdish deputies in prison, they have been deprived of their parliamentary protection and of their rights... A state that calls itself a democracy has to protect all those who decide to take part in politics, and especially those that enter parliament. They did not decide to give up their seats. Therefore, they have to be protected.
Is the judicial process against the independence movement a political process?
Yes, that is clear. For me, twisted and inadmissible means are being used to pressure the deputies and former deputies so that they renounce their ideas. But this is not Brazil, where they shut presidents like Lula da Silva in prison.
The imprisoned pro-independence leaders, are they political prisoners?
Yes, yes, they are. I have no doubt about it.
The Germans understood that things were not going the right way
Do you believe that Switzerland will extradite Marta Rovira?
We'll wait and see what... We already know that the intentions of the Spanish judges are a little special. But I find it very correct what German justice has done. It was the first time since the Second World War that they had arrested a Catalan president... And very quickly they understood that things were not going the right way.
Has the independence of Spanish justice been questioned in the eyes of Europe?
I live in a state under rule of law, where justice is chosen by universal suffrage, it is not the Parliament that chooses the judges. The fact that the Attorney General is chosen by universal suffrage gives independence and a very clear separation of powers. In contrast with this, especially over the Catalan question, we do not see this separation of powers in Spain.
If Germany, Scotland, Switzerland and Belgium rejected the extraditions, what would that mean for the Spanish state?
It will mean that they have done everything very badly. In Europe, since the Second World War, what has united Europeans has been the separation of powers. I expect that, like Germany and Belgium, this will also apply in the case of Switzerland. We can't hand people over to Spain who have done no more than defending ideas. They have only taken part in peaceful demonstrations. I don't see any motives for my country to extradite them.
They are using brutal repression and stupid authoritarianism to prevent the Catalan people from expressing their will
What did you think on 1st October, when you saw police charges against voters?
In December I was invited to the Escola Mediterrània in Barceloneta, one of the polling stations where police charges took place. I made a speech, denouncing that the Spanish central state had placed itself in an absurd impasse due to its rejection of the Catalans' right to decide their future. They are using brutal repression and stupid authoritarianism to prevent the Catalan people from expressing their will.
You have been very critical with the application of article 155, under which the Spanish government has direct rule over Catalonia...
I told Torrent, and I'll say it again: political problems have to be solved politically. We cannot solve political problems with the excuse of articles of the constitution that have lost all their sense. Here in Switzerland we change articles of the constitution every year.
Is Spanish justice acting politically when, for example, it blocks three candidates from being able to be voted as Catalan president?
Yes, undoubtedly. It is as if in Switzerland the Attorney General came and said that he did not want a given minister because he did not like him. Or as if I asked him to sack extreme right-wing politicians who hold meetings with Le Pen, like the Union Démocratique du Centre.
You have offered Geneva and Switzerland as mediators in the conflict.
And Mr. Torrent told me that there is a will to find a platform, a place where people can discuss, either discreetly or officially. We offered platforms to enable meetings between Colombia and the FARC. We are capable of quickly organizing meetings in secret locations with the participation of senior UN figures. I have asked Michael Møller, UN director in Geneva, if there was a will to sit around a table. The federal government also. They have let me receive Torrent, because there is this attitude of positive disposition.
We are capable of quickly organizing meetings in secret locations with the participation of senior UN figures
What answer did you receive from the Spanish authorities?
I have not received any answer, so far. Nothing at all.
And what hope do you have?
I hope that some day they will use the platform that we offer them here to talk. Hopefully it will be Spain itself. But in my opinion it will be very difficult that either party takes up a frank dialogue within Spain.
Would a referendum be an essential part of the solution?
I don't know. I don't want to get into the strategy, that is up to the politicians. Switzerland makes itself available so that the conflict can be solved through dialogue. As for the way it will be solved, it is not for me to say. It is for Spaniards and Catalans, who are affected by this.
But in your controversial speech on the Day of Hispanic People, after the referendum, you defended the need for referendums even if those who govern do not like them.
That's true, it is a possibility that exists. In Switzerland it has happened. The Swiss canton of Jura, which belonged to that of Bern, was created after a referendum. It has also happened in other European countries. They are democratic processes. But it's not up to me to say if this has to involve a referendum.
Europe has a greater interest than anyone in solving the Catalan problem
How do you see the silence of the European countries and the European Union?
It is extremely shocking, because Europe is making a great strategic error. Europe has a greater interest than anyone in studying and helping to solve this problem politically. If it tried it would learn to manage its internal problems...
Like the surge of the extreme right?
As long as Europe stays still, we are seeing a retrograde movement of its identity. European parliaments are today seeing the rapid entry of populist groups. Europe is failing to understand what is happening, the discontent due to issues such as globalization, and people are voting for the worst types of populism, parties that are proposing backward-looking solutions.
Should the UN intervene in the Catalan conflict?
I have proposed to the UN that it plays a mediating role. The UN is not the body that has to solve the problem, but it does have a platform. And Europe has to force Spain to resolve it. It doesn't help at all that they restrict themselves to saying that it is a Spanish internal affair. It is a European issue.
How does Swiss society see it?
There is a strong sense of partnership here, because we have had major Spanish and Catalan immigration. There is a lot of attention to what is happening. And there is a certain fear that everything will end up degenerating. Because of that it is important not to avoid the problem. I insist: it is a matter for the Europeans. To say it in a nutshell, I only want to recall that the Second World War started in Spain with the Civil War.