Clara Ponsatí (Barcelona, 1957) admits that taking her seat at the European Parliament has been a situation she did not expect. "Many changes have come into my life when I thought I had done everything and I just needed to retire. I'm starting to get used to it now, I see that this is probably not the last one," she explains in a videocall conversation with ElNacional.cat. Ponsatí keeps her direct, decisive tone, critical of the Catalan independence process situation and of the parties' and institutions' response. She does not agree on the strategy of negotiating with Pedro Sánchez's government or on the will to approve the Catalan government budget, but she agrees on the diagnosis that the parliamentary term is exhausted.
It was best to continue the battle from the outside, because it has proved extremely difficult to maintain positions from the inside
The day you arrived at the European Parliament you published a video with Carles Puigdemont and Toni Comín claiming that exile had been a good decision...
It is clear that not having finished everything we had intended to do, in our redirectioning, it was best to continue the battle from the outside, because it has proved extremely difficult to maintain positions from the inside. I was convinced that the president and Comín would become MEPs. In my case, I thought it was a way to express support, but it wasn't supposed to have any implications on my real life ...
We've never given up and we've played all our cards whenever we could
Did you expect to reach the European Parliament?
No. I had envisioned the scenario that I would be spending some time, I didn't know how long, in exile, and that I had arrived at the place where I would be living this exile, as a professor at St Andrews, I thought. And then it turned out that I have to change again. The combination with Brexit has provided a component that is not our merit, but what is actually our merit is that we have never given up and we've played all our cards every time we could do so.
In this video you also talk about difficulties, uncertainties and lack of understanding. What did you mean?
When we committed ourselves to getting president Puigdemont elected as an MEP, many people assumed that this was impossible, that it wasn't worth it. Also, when we argued that once elected there was no way to stop us from taking our seats, there were many people who didn't take it seriously. Imprisoned pro-independence members of the Spanish Parliament had been swept out before the Catalan trial sentence, decisions had been made about who could be a member of the Catalan Parliament without the sovereign decision of the chamber, and there was a mental state that this was also the case for the European Parliament.
We've got used to biting the bullet in Catalan and Spanish politics, and once you've bitten four of them, biting a fifth one, you don't notice
Eventually, it didn't turn out like that, does the European Parliament function in a different way?
The European Parliament is required to obey the European Court of Justice criteria. This court is currently proving to be impartial - we've been elected, there is no further discussion. The thing is that we've got used to biting the bullet in Catalan and Spanish politics, and once you've bitten four of them, biting a fifth one, you don't notice.
I didn't make it up that Hitler admired the expulsion of the Jews by the Catholic Monarchs and wanted to surpass it, this was explained by Catalan writer Josep Pla, when he and Catalan journalist Eugeni Xammar interviewed Hitler
In your first speech to the European Parliament as MEP you denounced what you described as the history of Spain's intolerance, and explained that Hitler wanted to surpass the expulsion of the Jews by the Catholic Monarchs. A hard-hitting speech that has caused multiple reactions...
I didn't make it up that Hitler admired the expulsion of the Jews by the Catholic Monarchs and wanted to surpass it, this was explained by Catalan writer Josep Pla. When Pla and Catalan journalist Eugeni Xammar visited Hitler just after Primo de Rivera's coup d'etat in Spain, they interviewed him and both of them explain that Hitler tells Xammar: "You look like a Jew but don't worry because you're Spanish". And he went on in his eulogy that what the Catholic Monarchs did was very good but they fell short. These are Pla's words, not mine. Anti-Semitism has a very long history. When the argument is raised that we've been together for 500 years in Spain, this was the starting point for these 500 years.
Then, you talked about the situation in Catalonia also as a sign of this intolerance, and this comparison has also caused controversy ...
The styles have obviously changed. I don't want to make any comparision at all between the persecution suffered by the Jewish people and the present situation, not even a distant one. But the fact that a prosecutor feels legitimized to persecute a teacher who has criticized the Civil Guard violence shows a really worrying level of intolerance.
Is this one of your goals? To use the European Parliament as a platform to denounce the situation in Catalonia and the persecution against the Catalan independence process?
For sure. Our job is to participate as much as we can in parliamentary work, but at the same time we have an added obligation as exiles and members of the Puigdemont government, to use this loudspeaker to denounce the situation of suspension of civil rights and repression in Catalonia. Not all addresses will have the same focus, but it is our obligation. The European Parliament is a great loudspeaker, a great space where everyone echoes the multiple and infinite causes under political debate in Europe, and it is clear that the situation in Catalonia is an important one. There is a lot of attention paid to what we do and say.
The European Parliament has already started the procedure for the petition by the Spanish Supreme Court against your immunity, and your extradition is still an open case in Scotland. How will all this affect your current situation?
The case in Scotland was opened before I had immunity, but we don't necessarily expect that the Scottish judge will suspend my extradition process. I think we won't even ask for it. I am very willing to have a decision about it made.
If I knew that I could have a fair trial, I would be in Barcelona tomorrow. The problem is that I know I won't have it
What are your expectations about the judicial process?
I think this will go ahead, the trial will be ready at the end of March and there will be a decision in June. I cannot anticipate whether it will be favourable or not. The fact that Spanish justice makes such a strange interpretation of what immunity means, is another element to be added to our argument that I wouldn't have a fair trial if I was extradited, which is the main reason why we don't accept extradition. If I knew that I could have a fair trial, I would be in Barcelona tomorrow. The problem is that I know I won't have it.
Catalan political prisoners are getting leave from prison as if they had committed terrible crimes. Let's not take this lightly. It is no concession by Spanish justice
Meanwhile, Catalan political prisoners are starting to leave the prison.
They are still convicted. They are getting leave from prison as if they had committed terrible crimes, like murder or drug trafficking, and they have been serving their sentences for some time now. So they are getting the same treatment as any other prisoner. They have been locked up for a long time, and it's atrocious if they don't meet all the conditions for leave. So let's not take it lightly. We are obviously happy that they can go outside and breathe the air and embrace their families but it is no concession by Spanish justice, it's simply the compliance with the normal prison system.
The only reasonable way out is an amnesty that throws out absolutely all the cases related to the Catalan fight for independence, all of them
What do you think will be the way out of this persecution against the Catalan independence process? Reform of the Criminal Code, amnesty, pardon?
The only reasonable way out is an amnesty that throws out absolutely all the cases related to the Catalan fight for independence, all of them. And therefore, it ought to allow the unconditional release of all political prisoners, to put an end to all the low-intensity small persecutions, to the Court of Auditors, and it ought to allow the return of exiles... If the Spanish Parliament wants to review the Criminal Code, to make it more civilized and suppress the crime of sedition, it seems right to me. This may improve the situation of people who are already convicted, but it does not solve the problem that the Spanish state, when facing a political conflict, chose to make judicial war. Ending this judicial war requires amnesty, and many other things, obviously, because the high judicial levels in Spain are clearly under the political control of the most extreme far-right.
And to overcome the political conflict?
Without an agreement to manage the right to self-determination of the Catalan people, recognizing the October 1st referendum or reaching a pact to find ways to hold a new referendum explicitly accepted by the Spanish state, without that, I don't see how we will leave this cul-de-sac. But well, we are clearly very, very far from that. I believe that this is necessary for a solution, but it doesn't mean that I am not aware that we have receded a lot and therefore these milestones are extremely complicated right now.
Giving prime minister Pedro Sánchez the gift of a photo, of the meeting with Torra, when he has clearly said he will do nothing, is self-punishment. Not necessary
Don't you trust the dialogue table with Pedro Sánchez's government?
It's not that I don't trust it. They have very explicitly pointed out everything they are not willing to talk about. They have said it over and over. If they are not willing to talk, we can hardly hope that this dialogue process will bear any results. In general, when there is a conflict and you start a negotiation, it's usually first in a discreet way, without the carpets and spotlights, that the parties speak and, if a solution is sighted, then the meetings, the photographs are staged... Pedro Sánchez goes to Barcelona, poses for a photo, goes in, comes out, and nothing has been talked about, there has been no agreement ... What's more, he clearly says that everything that is considered necessary for Catalonia is unimportant for him. But he already has the photo and here at the European Parliament and everywhere, the perception is that Pedro Sánchez is putting the solution on track. I believe that giving away these images to a government that has done absolutely nothing and explicitly says that it does not intend to do anything is self-punishment. Not necessary.
That list that Sánchez presented, that shopping list, one doesn't know whether to laugh or cry about it
In other words, you disagree on this dialogue strategy?
I always agree on dialogue, what I don't agree on is pretending that there is dialogue when there is no dialogue and giving the image that a solution is being opened when there is no symptom of that being so and when this image only benefits one of the parties. This image only benefits Pedro Sánchez. If he thinks he can offer things, let him offer them. The operation he made with that list, that shopping list, one doesn't know whether to laugh or cry about it. I don't share the strategy of sitting and talking rather than doing nothing. When you sit and talk and have photos published and make the world believe that a solution is near, it's a six-month oxygen supply.
We are under a practically and mentally invoked article 155
You said that it is proving extraordinarily difficult to maintain political positions within Catalonia, do you consider that the parties or the government are not acting properly?
More than the Catalan government, I am sorry about the Catalan Parliament. The Parliament elected on December 21st, 2017 with a mandate of restitution [of the Puigdemont government], clearly abandoned this mandate on January 30th, 2018 and since then we have been under a practically and mentally invoked article 155 through which Catalonia's autonomy is suspended. That affects all aspects of government autonomy. There is a situation of financial and political control and for the last two years there have been far too many episodes of bodies interfering in the decisions of the Parliament, exceeding their authority, to which the Parliament has given in. And therefore it has not acted according to the mandate it had received. There is a vision that it was a mistake to hold the referendum, let's redirect this, let's start again... I don't share this vision, but I think it is represented in an important part of the Parliament. It is spread across the various political forces. It would be very easy to blame Catalan Republican Left (ERC). They explain quite well what they think, but they are not the only ones who think this way and it is all a bit confusing. It will be necessary to clarify the strategy to continue the fight for the Catalan republic. I don't have the philosopher's stone, it's not easy at all.
You sound as if the political parties have disappointed you...
I have not been disappointed because I didn't have high expectations either. Having little hope because you begin to know what you'll find doesn't mean that it is acceptable. It's a bit scary to see a Parliament that claims to represent the people of Catalonia being so spineless. I don't mean I am absolutely right. But I would like to see this confirmed through an election.
I don't quite understand the urge to approve the budget of a government that is ending
For now, Catalan president Quim Torra, has said that the parliamentary term can move no further politically...
It cannot indeed. It can move on administratively. I don't quite understand the urge to approve the government budget, as if it were so important, because in the end budgets are approved by governments that have a political plan, but for a government that says it's ending because it needs to go for an election, why the need to approve the budget? I'm sorry but sometimes Catalan politics doesn't seem to apply normal rationality and I claim rationality.
When do you think you will return to Catalonia?
I don't know. Some days I think there is little time left and some other days I think I still have a long way to go. Potentially, if favourable conditions were given in the sense that: pro-independence forces took substantial steps in building a strategy to move forward, and at the same time, popular mobilisations, which are clearly in standby, were revived again, and also Spanish democrats had more of a democratic attitude, things could change very quickly. But well, that is a possibility. I can also talk about catastrophic scenarios. And in these catastrophic scenarios our exile is very very long.
Is exile hard?
Yes. I have a habit of not complaining, I was educated like that. But yes, it is not a bed of roses.
You are the only British MEP, for the time being.
Yes, that caused a certain administrative turmoil, being a resident in Scotland caused a bit of a short-circuit. But for now everything is administratively sorted. All British MEPs have left and I have just arrived. I do not plan to change my residence. The heating at my house in St Andrews is on, I will try to maintain my links with the University, if possible.
Should Carles Puigdemont run for president in the next election to the Catalan Parliament?
I don't feel like commenting on this subject. I will try to participate little in this debate. To start with, I prefer that Puigdemont stay at the European Parliament. I will not get involved in any candidacy for the next elections in the Catalan Parliament.
Do you consider the scenario of being extradited?
Yes, it could happen. I believe it is unlikely because European justice has seen the Spanish Supreme Court trial. It is evident that for pro-independence Catalans there is no independent justice in Spain. A judge that responds to democratic criteria and respect for human rights should not grant these extraditions. But we cannot take it for granted. It may be that a judge accepts them with conditions, like the judge in Schleswig-Holstein that limited Puidgemont's extradition. And, once extradited, who knows what would happen, once you get into the van and you are in the hands of the Spanish Civil Guard and then in the hands of the Spanish Supreme Court or whoever they think will make the most effective treatment. I don't rule it out. And if it happens we will have to adapt to it. It seems unlikely, but you can never be certain about it.