Catalan president Carles Puigdemont receives El Nacional early on Friday afternoon in Brussels. He arrives at the café of the hotel set down for his press interview wearing the black overcoat in which he has been seen strolling the streets of this European capital where he is becoming a very popular guest. From his Belgian exile the president is preparing for the most surprising election campaign in the history of the Catalan Parliament and is ready to fight, with a point of indignancy, against the suspension of Catalonia's autonomy and against all the parties that support it —the 155 clan, he comments ironically. He is conscious of the difficulties of this unequal struggle but also of the opportunity to obtain a new democratic mandate. Puigdemont defends his government, the proclamation of the Republic made by the Catalan Parliament and the validity of the independence referendum; and he denies that any of the members of his executive have committed themselves to obey article 155. He makes it clear that the approach is combative and that he is ready to face up to anybody he has to, even the large Spanish communications groups, who he accuses of acting as loudspeakers for the Spanish state's narrative.
The pro-independence parties have decided to run in the Catalan elections of 21st December. Have they done so because it was the only option open?
There is an underlying reason: we, unlike the 155 parties, have never scorned the ballot box, and every democratic opportunity we have had before us, we have not only taken but we have also won. We don't do what they do - selectively rejecting the process of voting when they don't think it's in their interest. We never reject voting, on the contrary, we will defeat them at the polls, as we have up till now. The second reason, is that, for us, the most absolute priority is to defeat the coup d'état, to defeat the 155 parties - Iceta, Arrimadas, Albiol, Rajoy - so that they clearly lose the elections, and therefore, will accept the result decided by the Catalans, and if the result is a slap in the face for 155 and for them all, apart from taking the decisions that they have to take politically, whether they feel they have to resign or not, what they have to do is promise to apply the result, that is, to put an end to article 155 that same night. Will they agree to do this or not? Will they accept the democratically explicit result when the game is played under their rules, with the guarantees that they give - we will see if they are as should be - will they accept the result? Will they cancel 155 that same night, yes or no? It's an easy question to reply to.
There is democracy beyond the Constitution. Or is it not democratic to defend a Spanish republic?
The Spanish government's representative in Catalonia, Enric Millo, has said that even if they lift 155 it does not mean that the economic intervention will finish, and Mariano Rajoy himself said last week in Barcelona that he will speak with everybody but always within the limits of the Constitution and the law. It feels like we are re-telling a story we have heard before...
What we hear from the band of liars in Madrid has a certain importance, because Mr Rajoy, who is Mister "No to everything", the man of "I am neither able to talk, nor do I want to", clearly does not want to speak about anything. Somebody will have to explain to him that there is democracy beyond the constitution. Or is it not democratic to defend a Spanish republic? Are those who defend a Spanish republic antidemocratic, because it is not foreseen in the constitution? Are those who defend euthanasia antidemocratic? I'm just posing a question. Sometimes it seems that we believe with complete normality in what this band of people keep on defining as a democracy, and in the end it will turn into an organic democracy [the Franco dictatorship’s usual term to describe its own form of government]. Is it democratic or not to make an expression that is not contemplated in the constitution but that is made by democratic means, that is, by respecting the decision of the people and by non-violence? Is defending a Spanish republic democratic or not? It seems from the words of Mr Rajoy that we cannot speak about this. Regarding Mr Millo I have already said what I think. A compulsive liar like Mr Millo does not have any moral authority either to speak in the name of the Catalan institutions, or to take any decision in the name of the Catalan institutions. The people of Catalonia have not authorized the Popular Party to take decisions, on anything, not on the disputed heritage items of Sixena or on the economy. If the Catalan people vote on 21st December to get rid of 155, what moral authority can be invoked to maintain the economic blockade of the Catalan government accounts, which, in any case, is illegal.
You backed the idea of a unitary list for the elections, but it hasn't been possible... Finally you have created a candidature using the brand Together for Catalonia (JustXCat). Are you satisfied with that?
Very satisfied with the response, the readiness of many people who immediately understood the message. The lists are the first discourse in a political project and, from the discourse that the list provides, people can understand what we are proposing.
PDeCAT has shown great generosity in entering into the JuntsXCat project
However, there were some members of the Catalan European Democratic Party (PDeCAT) who didn't like this speech, feeling that they were being pushed to one side...
Perfection does not exist. I'm sure that a list made by the PDeCAT itself wouldn't have appealed to the entire PDeCAT either, and when I speak about the PDeCAT, I could be saying the same about the Catalan Republican Left (ERC) or about the Popular Unity Candidacy (CUP). We would be living in undemocratic societies, if there were no discrepancy and contrasting opinions. What is evident is that the PDeCAT has shown great generosity in entering into this project, and many other people as well. In general everybody has made a good reading of what this list stands for, those who are part of it, the PDeCAT, the people who have never been in politics before, the people who have mobilized in favour of unity; it is a list that people who have traditionally voted for other political options can easily vote for. It is not a list that appeals only to one aspect of potential independence voters, it appeals to all of them and I therefore feel very satisfied.
Will JuntsXCat have continuity or is it only a platform for this election?
We are making decisions in very exceptional circumstances. I am in Brussels, soon it will be a month since I arrived, facing harassment from the Spanish media, with Spanish justice acting like a justice of vengeance, more than half the Catalan government in prison, with evident difficulties... We can't try and make an analysis of the situation in the way we normally do. I have not considered if this is the project of a political party. It's not fair to even ask the question, as we are in a moment of national emergency, very difficult, and we have to do everything we can to stop this democratic backsliding, this aggression against the Catalan institutions. If today the best tool to do this is a list that is as transversal as possible, then today that is required, but does that mean that in three months this will be the tool? We don't know. That is not due to some Machiavellian ambition of saying from here on we don't know what we will do, it is just the situation. There is no more than that. It's what we have to do now, as the most effective and efficient answer to this blow than the 155 clan has wanted to inflict on us.
Will we really consider it normal that an election is held on these terms and under these conditions? I won't
It's a very important campaign, in extraordinary conditions, so how can you take part in it?
We are attempting to analyse it as a normal situation, with an extraordinary abnormality. And we have to accept that there are candidates who are in prison or in exile, who do not have equality of conditions or of treatment in the Spanish media, both public and private. Will we consider this as normal? Will we really consider it normal that an election is held on these terms and under these conditions? I won't. We will do what we can. And obviously, if the Spanish government gives me a guarantee, and I invite them to give all candidates a guarantee of equality in the opportunities to defend our political projects, I'll be very happy to go to Barcelona tomorrow to campaign, very happy, but that doesn't depend on me.
You will face problems, for example, the electoral debates. How will you cope?
I would ask the others. Will they accept a debate among candidates when one candidate can't go there to take part? Will everybody accept this with normality? I refuse to normalize it. Therefore, I ask the others: do what you can, what is in your power, which is very much, very much. They already know this because I am saying it, do what is in your power. Those people who were so worried about the guarantees for the members of parliament in the reform of our parliamentary regulations, do the guarantees for the candidates worry them now or not? Will they help all candidates to have the same guarantees and the protection that they enjoy? I no longer expect the media support that they enjoy, and I don't even talk about funding any more.
What do you mean when you say they already know they have it in their power?
Because they have a lot of strength. They have a great deal of strength.
It has not been possible to make a unitary list but it has been to agree on some common points...
This already came from before my list, from the conversations between PDeCAT, CUP and ERC.
One of the things that stands out most in these points is that it seems that the unilateral route has been put aside and there is a commitment to a bilateral negotiation with the Spanish state.
I have always given preference to a negotiated referendum and to a bilateral approach in implementing the referendum results. In the points that I will make to President Rajoy the first time we meet, this is one of the elements to demand. Does this mean excluding all other possibilities? Not at all. Especially when faced with a state that acts unilaterally. I mean, has 155 been discussed, has it been bilateral? It’s a little laughable at times. We have a state that uses all its force, and illegal means, to apply its unilateral will, because article 155 is a unilateral act, right? But as for us, we have to say, we don’t renounce a democratic path. We shouldn’t renounce anything, at the start. That doesn't mean that we do not prioritize one strategy. We all agree on this. Of course we have to prioritize, even in these situations, when one part of the government is in prison and the other out of the country, so of course there is a priority for dialogue and negotiation. Naturally. And this requires a bilateral approach. Of course.
We can't renounce unilateralism if the Spanish state has not renounced its own unilateralism
This does not mean abandoning other routes...
The thing, we can't abandon unilateralism if the Spanish state has not abandoned its own. If Spain says: I renounce the unilateral approach, and therefore, I renounce violence, and the unilateral imposition of article 155, and the unilateralism of the Constitutional Court, and of asking for the suspension of all the laws that are sent to that Court... But we are facing a state that acts unilaterally. Do we have to keep acting so innocently or not? It's the Spanish state that needs to renounce unilateralism. Then we'll be speaking under different conditions.
What do you mean?
I'll give an example: if now the Spanish legislative elections were won by a republican party with an electoral manifesto that said "I will proclaim a republic if I have more votes than the monarchic parties", and let's say that party goes and wins. Will the proclamation of that republic be a unilateral event or will it have to be negotiated with the king? Will it be unconstitutional and will that party run the risk of 30 years in prison? Because it's not constitutional! Will they have to create a constitutional commission on reform of the constitution so that after I don't know how many years there can be a constitution that, - yes, finally - says that Spain is a republic? Don't make me laugh! If there is a Spanish republican party that wins the elections, and it wins them in terms of votes, it is a plebiscite. And I don't believe that anyone could justify that a week later, Spain could still be considered a monarchy. Therefore, it will be an event that some will call unilateral in order to belittle its value and prestige, but what has to be done? Carry out a bilateral negotiation with the monarchy?
I won't be able to vote. I prefer to maintain my freedom of movement and the defence of the position of the institution
Won't you be able to vote in these elections, president?
I won't be able to vote. I would have been able to if I had been arrested. But I prefer to maintain my freedom of movement and the defence of the position of the institution I represent, in the conditions in which I now face - which, sadly, prevent me from voting.
There is speculation that you could turn up in Barcelona on election day...
I don't want to enter into speculation. I'm not up to it...
We are falling into the strategy of the rumour machine that Spain has manufactured to pollute our mental framework
That depends on you...
People are speculating about intentions of mine that I have not even imagined. This is very unfair and leaves me quite defenceless. I have to chase after lies, follow behind what is really the construction of rumours as a weapon of war. A lie or slander is created, and in the negation of that lie, there is an element that acts as confirmation to the slander, gives it credibility. We have to stop falling into these traps. Let's dig a little deeper. Who was it who published that I was a Zionist agent who could even be behind what happened to the public prosecutor Maza? I find it incredible even for Mr Maza's family... Could somebody look at who pays for these anonymous stories? Do any of the companies that have moved their headquarters out of Catalonia pay for them? Do public contingency funds pay for them? What do the writers live on? Where do they get the information from, does anybody ask: such and such a newspaper, where do you get the information that Mr Puigdemont is a Zionist agent? I cannot spend my life denying what are intentional slanders. We can't spend all day on this! We are falling into the strategy of the rumour machine that Spain has manufactured to pollute our mental framework.
Will you take possession of your seat in parliament after the elections?
Yes. If I am chosen and the citizens want me to be an MP, I will take possession of my seat.
Will you see yourself as having been returned to your post?
The point is that I do not see myself as having been dismissed, in order to see myself returned I would have to see myself dismissed, and I don't. I haven't been dismissed.
If the people of Catalonia and Parliament decide it, what makes me an MP and president cannot take me to prison
Do you contemplate being sworn in from exile?
Legally an investiture is not possible in exile. What I could contemplate is an investiture in the Catalan Parliament. If the people of Catalonia want me to be an MP, if the parliamentary majority wants me to be president, that which has made me an MP and president cannot take me to prison. That would be a very great contradiction. What leads you to be president, an electoral programme that wins the confidence of a democratically-voted parliament and with the rules of the game set by the Spanish government and can then lead you five minutes later to be arrested and put in prison... This is a democratic anomaly that has to be resolved.
I have not taken the decision on whether I will take possession of the post
Does this mean that you will take possession of your post?
I have not taken the decision. But this should be normal. If there is a democratic mandate that the whole world can see. If I am an MP and have a majority to allow me to be invested as president, what is the normal practice? That I take possession of the presidency. And that I do the work that the Catalan Parliament entrusts to me. What is abnormal is that with the same ideas and the same political programme that led me to becoming president, I might have to go to prison for 30 years. That is abnormal.
Citizens have to know that whether voting for a given political party means they will be voting for 155
The possibility of there being a legitimate government and an executive government has been raised. Would this duality be accepted?
There could be many formulas to generate compatibility with something which is indisputable for the majority, that is, who is the legitimate government of Catalonia. The way we go about this is not under discussion. But, prior to this, I would want to hear an explicit commitment by the candidates, all of them, especially those of the 155 band, that if the people of Catalonia want Parliament to have a pro-independence majority and this majority wants to invest as president a person who is outside the country, they will make a commitment to allow this person to take possession of the post. Because that would be a way of respecting the results. When I ask for them to say that they are ready to accept the results, this is what I mean. I believe that the citizens deserve an answer on this before they vote. They have to know that if they vote for a given political party, they will be voting for 155 whatever happens. Lying is valueless. It is very clear: Mr Iceta, leader of the Catalan Socialist Party, will you demand an end to Article 155 in Catalonia the day after the elections if the pro-155 parties lose? Yes or no? Ms Arrimadas (Citizens), Mr Albiol (Popular Party), do you commit yourselves to respect the results or not? And, secondly, if the Catalan Parliament has a majority that could declare as president someone who is living outside Catalonia, do you commit yourselves to respecting the result agreed on by the Catalan Parliament? Or this time do the guarantees made by the MPs of the majority not count? The guarantees of the MPs who want to invest a person who lives outside Catalonia but will be arrested if he enters, will you respect those or not? It is very simple to reply, it's very simple to avoid complicated answers, yes or no? Catalan voters deserve this clarity, so will they please explain, so that when people go to cast their votes, they know what they will be voting for - it's worthless to fool people later.
There has been talk of investing Puigdemont, even if he doesn't win the elections...
What is indisputable is that if there is a sufficient pro-independence majority, Catalonia will have sent a colossal message to the world, and it will be this, that despite everything, despite Rajoy having Europe's permission to do what he wants, a completely free hand to resolve what it considers a problem, he will have been defeated. That will be an impressive victory and a message to the world. If with people under arrest, in exile, and via the use of violence, through the coup d'état article 155, with the deployment of 10,000 police officers, tax persecution, a media war, and economic war, even with all this, if we still win, Mr Rajoy will have a lot of explaining to do to Europe.
The proclamation of the Republic has not been invalidated by anyone. The referendum result stands
If you win, what will that imply for the proclamation of the republic made by Parliament?
It has not been invalidated by anyone. The referendum result stands. If the people of Catalonia ratify the desire they expressed on October 1st and October 3rd, who has the right to not follow through on this decision by the people of Catalonia?
I go back to the example of a Spanish republic again. Would it enter anyone's head that after a political party backing a Spanish republic won by an absolute majority, the issue would have to be sent back to the Constitutional Court to be considered or a judgement sought from the Council of State? Nobody would even think of trying it. If the people of Catalonia deny the Spanish version and discredit and defeat coup d'état of 155, what do we have to do then, accept 155? Obviously not. Who rules in a democracy? The people rule. Not the Board of Statutory Guarantees, or the Constitutional Court. The people rule.
They have managed to change our mental framework. We accept as normal things that are highly abnormal
However, the Constitutional Court rejected that declaration. So where will we be?
Exactly. Where will we be? How would we portray a state which allows this to happen? It is the same case as that of the hypothetical republican party I mentioned. The Constitutional Court would say, and would probably be right, that the proclamation of the Spanish republic would be unconstitutional, and perhaps would find a public prosecutor who would lay charges of rebellion against the person who had proclaimed the republic, and they would probably say that the demonstrations supporting that person were tumultuous and, therefore, they involved violence, and moreover, they would perhaps also arrest the person and take them to court and place them in preventive detention in case they might repeat the offence... they have managed to change our mental framework. This is the thing that is abnormal. We accept as normal things that are highly abnormal. If the Spanish state is a country in which there are first and second class citizens, and according to what a person votes for it's either valid or invalid, then we have to know that before voting. This will lead to the definition of a state which will probably not be one of the most exemplary democracies in the world.
No-one would even think of accepting 155. They want to present the people who are in prison as people who give in
In any case, all the members of the government in prison have had to obey or accept the validity of 155...
There has been a great deal of confusion about this. If anybody thinks we accept article 155 and feel fine about that, then they have not heard or read or wanted to hear what the ministers in jail have said. Don’t confuse a legitimate and understandable defence strategy with our commitments and political decisions. I have not seen anyone, on any electoral list, not the vice president nor the ministers in prison, saying that if they are in the Catalan government they will accept article 155. Please, that is offensive to their personal situation. It is not what they said. No-one would even think of accepting 155 in the terms that the Spanish editorial chorus would like to see. They would like to present the people who are in prison as people who give in... This is a lie and tremendously unfair to their personal situation. People who are absolutely committed to pushing forward with what the people of Catalonia decide, as they have always done.
What is your situation, as you see it?
It's hard to say because the situation is so anomalous that I refuse to think in terms of normality. I would like to be in Catalonia tomorrow and be able to defend my ideas under equal conditions to those of the other candidates for the presidency of Catalonia. And to be able to enjoy the same respect by the media, at least the public media, and not to see my image juxtaposed with the soundtrack of the film The Exorcist on Spanish public television, which is truly a machine for manipulation of the people. Will this happen? Sadly, no. And given that, what should I do? Give up? Not that either. Fight back. And ask the people of Catalonia to defeat article 155, to say no to the coup d'état, to restore the democratic legitimacy that they mandated to us on September 27th, 2015. That is within our power, the people of Catalonia willing to defend the republic, and defend against whatever the state does, are in a position to defend this legitimacy, by voting. But I see myself confronted by a state that has more and more authoritarian characteristics all the time. It is not easy and I do not want to normalize this situation. It is extremely serious. And looked at from out in Europe it is much more serious. I understand that to live in Catalonia every day, it could be possible to minimize what is happening, and even to understand it. What the Spanish state has done is extremely serious. It has mounted an assault on democracy.
Mr Iceta, after so many decades in politics, should do a good service and if he is defeated, if his coalition, that of 155, is defeated, he should retire. For him it's time
The PSOE also supports this, and Miquel Iceta (PSC) has said that he will not invest a pro-independence president, and even the mayor of Barcelona, Ada Colau, has said that she awaits explanations of why the president has left...
It seems me that it is very unfair to demand explanations from those of us who are in prison or outside the country. I believe that explanations should be demanded from people who are very close by. So let's wait for those, indeed. Mr Iceta, after so many decades in politics, should do a good service and if he is defeated, if his coalition, that of 155, is defeated, he should retire. For him it's time. You can't keep going against the interests of the people of Catalonia. If the majority interests were, for example, in favour of the Statute, you couldn't go against that; if it is to defeat 155, you can't be in favour of 155. If you want to respect the decision of the people, obviously. To me, the 155 coalition is also a unity in constitutional terms. It is the same political space. It is the same to vote for the PSC, as the PP, as to vote Cs. There is one thing above even democracy, that is the unity of Spain, it is like a sacred, religious idea. There are no differences. They are capable of coming to an agreement with the right, if it suits them, or of incorporating the right into their lists. Even the homophobic right. They are capable of anything. Catalan politics needs a major renewal of leadership. If the majority of Catalan people want there to be a majority in Catalonia that places the 155 clan in the opposition, this will have to be respected.
It is the same to vote for the PSC, as the PP, as to vote Cs. There is one thing above even democracy, that is the unity of Spain, it is like a sacred, religious idea
Are you maintaining contact with the members of the government who are in prison?
Directly, it is impossible. Well, very difficult. Indirectly yes, because through lawyers we pass on messages of encouragement and support to all of them. Yes, obviously.
What's been the worst moment of this month?
There have been many, but I don't think now is the time to explain them, we will talk about them at a time and in a format that we believe more suitable.
What did you think of seeing a former minister such as Santi Vila greeting Mariano Rajoy on Thursday?
It is a personal disappointment and an image of the old politics, which is exactly what we have to defeat on December 21st. On that day, among other things, a third way will not exist. It is impossible. The people who do not vote for the clearly pro-independence options will be voting for this Spain. This Spain will never change. The people that vote for an option that continues defending the current status quo, that continues defending this Spain, will have to like it very much because it will stay like this for many years, very little will change. The mirage, the fantasy of change, is over. There is a journalist who often speaks about the fantasies of others and never bothers to look at his own. Someday, somebody will have to purge the fantasy of the third way. Because, exactly what is the third way, and who do they want to build it with? Or is it simply an endless queue in which you wait for something that never arrives... Well, that's the image of this fantasy.
Do you regret accepting the investiture?
I do not regret it. When president Artur Mas made me the proposal I knew what I was taking on. I cannot regret this. It was a great honour, unexpected, which I endeavour to match with my attitude. I would not be here if I didn't think that it was a great honour or if I had regretted it. I would have given up, made a deal, obeyed authority and I don't know what. Of course I do not regret it.
The Spanish state is trying to create a state of fear so that people feel afraid to vote
Do you fear that the pressure of the state will have an electoral effect, as this repression is not limited to the imprisoned or exiled members of the government, but also is used to attack personal patrimony, there are teachers being called to court for hate crimes...
No, obviously. There is a state of fear. The Spanish state is trying to create a state of fear so that the people feel afraid to vote. So that the people think: be careful how you vote, don't make a mistake because there will be reprisals, what you have seen is just a test, don't make a mistake because if you do, we will keep encouraging companies to leave, it will affect your economy... This state of fear has its accomplices in Catalonia. And to create a state of fear is anything but democratic among good people. Of course I fear it. How can a situation where some candidates cannot mount a normal election campaign, where some are in prison, how can that not have effects? We are talking about a situation that is at time so dramatic and extreme, the question is obvious, almost offensive. In these 42 years since the death of Franco, how many elections have taken place in which the legitimately chosen government is in prison or in exile and stands for elections? Not even one. Therefore, of course this has an effect, and the Spanish state will attempt to influence voting. Or what is TVE, Spanish public television, doing? What is the Planeta publishing group doing? What are the other communication groups doing, spreading falsehoods and slanders? What are they doing? Attempting to contribute to democracy through the freedom of information? No. They are contributing to the editorial unity which is one more mechanism to combat the democratic idea of the independence of Catalonia.
But one thing is for them to attempt it, I'm asking you if you fear that they might achieve it...
Here, the answer is the people of Catalonia, which have never failed, which are more than mobilized, especially because they rest on a source, which is the source of dignity. A long time ago I told Mr Mariano Rajoy not to underestimate the power of the people of Catalonia. Four days ago on the title page of the Italian newspaper La Repubblica in an interview with prime minister Rajoy he said literally: “I have saved Spain”. We come back to the saviours of the homeland. On December 21st the choice is between the saviours of the homeland or the servants of the country; between those that say "the state is I", and those that say "the state is you, the people, and help us to make a much better and more democratic state than what we will ever be able to create in this Spanish state."